British East Africa 1909 1 Cent & 1/2 Cent - Copper-Nickel or Nickel-Bronze? [solved]

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This message aims at: requesting the modification of a coin in the catalogue

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Hello all,

I was looking through the 1909 Royal Mint Report (as one does) and I came across the section for East Africa and Uganda:


(sorry about the formatting, you'll just have to click on the image)

The report lists the composition of the 1 Cent and 1/2 Cent coins as Nickel-Bronze. However, in our catalog and in Krause they are listed as Copper-Nickel. Can anyone shed some light on this inconsistency?

Edit: Here are the links to the coins:
½ Cent
1 Cent
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My first question would be - what is "nickel-bronze"? Is it an alloy of copper, nickel and tin, as a strict interpretation of the name would indicate? Searching on the internet for this term is pretty useless, mostly throwing up hits for guitar strings.
My second question is - does this term appear elsewhere in the report? The British West Africa pennies were also being struck in cupro-nickel at this time (as far as we know). Sadly, the link doesn't work for me.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "ceh2019"​My first question would be - what is "nickel-bronze"? Is it an alloy of copper, nickel and tin, as a strict interpretation of the name would indicate?

​Yes pretty much exactly that. The term nickel-bronze is not used much anymore. It's more commonly known as cupro-nickel with tin. There are probably many different exact compositions but basically they are ~88% copper, 5-10% nickel, 2-5% tin. One common alloy is UNS C72500 (88.2%Cu, 9.5%Ni, 1.5%Sn). And yes, they do make guitar strings from it.

This is another reason why the coin page should show the exact composition if known. Even though copper-nickel is "correct" it's not the same copper-nickel (70-30) used for so many coins that look "silvery."
Does the mint report state the composition of the nickel bronze? If we have that, then this name is perfectly justified. I'd just like to be sure the mint wasn't using this name for what they would later call cupro-nickel. It would also be nice to know what exactly is meant by "tin brass", used in this and other coins. Do you have access to later mint reports?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
I found this:

The US coin referred to is the Flying Eagle Cent (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces14014.html) which is .880 copper, .120 nickel. The US Mint report does not use the term nickel-bronze for it.

If that's the "nickel-bronze" they're referring to then "copper-nickel" composition makes sense although exact composition should still be shown (like I did for the Flying Eagle Cent).
The Jamaican coins are certainly given as cupro-nickel in the catalogues. I think we're safest sticking with cupro-nickel for now and we should try and get the exact compositions. If it turns out some tin was used, then we can change the name at the same time as including the composition.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "rsirian1"​I found this:
​
​The US coin referred to is the Flying Eagle Cent (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces14014.html) which is .880 copper, .120 nickel. The US Mint report does not use the term nickel-bronze for it.
​
​If that's the "nickel-bronze" they're referring to then "copper-nickel" composition makes sense although exact composition should still be shown (like I did for the Flying Eagle Cent).
Nice catch.
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Based on the fact that the 1909 Royal Mint Report "defines" nickel-bronze as 12% nickel/88% copper (in the footnote) I think it's a good probability that that's the composition they're referring to when they say nickel-bronze elsewhere. Maybe add a comment to the coin page stating that instead?
Are we sure about that? The East Africa coins don't have the same yellow colour as the US flying eagle cents (I have both cents in my collection, so I can make a direct comparison). I'd therefore be doubtful the nickel content is as low as 12%. By eye, I'd put it around that of the UK 20p, at 16% nickel. I'd say they're using the term "nickel bronze" more generally, to mean any alloy of copper and nickel, and specifying the exact composition only for those particular US coins.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
OK. We're not sure of anything other than it's an alloy of copper and nickel.
Yes, I think that's the safe course of action for now but thank you for pointing this out as it clearly needs clarifying.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
This article
https://www.royalmintmuseum.org.uk/journal/curators-corner/the-value-of-small-change/
would seem to confirm it was what the mint now calls cupro-nickel.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
I am reviving this thread as I have found a link to an archive of the Royal Mint's annual reports from 1870 to 1976. Hopefully we can find some answers there.
Quote: "ceh2019"It would also be nice to know what exactly is meant by "tin brass", used in this and other coins. Do you have access to later mint reports?
According to the 1920-21 report, "Tin-Brass" is composed of 79% Copper, 20% Zinc, and 1% Nickel. It would be more accurate to list these coins as "Nickel Brass".
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Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦 and Free Palestine 🇵🇸!
That's a great find. Forgive me but I can't locate the reference to tin-brass (the search doesn't give any hits). Which page is it on?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
It's on the bottom of the right page on the second link. However, in the report the metal is referred to as "Alloy metal" or in this case "Alloy Coinage".

Another reason that these reports are a good find is that they compile information from other mints, from Rio de Janeiro to Vienna to Osaka.
Master Coin Referee
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Also here on page 15. Note, both say 1% tin, not nickel, which makes sense for "tin-brass."

Yes, I saw the tin reference, not nickel. That's what made me think I must be missing something. If it is tin then I suppose tin-brass can stand.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Ouch, I completely misread that. I think I was mentally conflating that with the 1932 Guatemalan coins, which were made of 79% Copper, 20% Zinc, and 1% Nickel (despite the SCWC listing them as simply "Brass"). You are correct, Tin Brass is completely appropriate.
Master Coin Referee
Coin referee for CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN, and SLV.

Revisor principal de monedas
Revisor de Numista para monedas de CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN y SLV.

Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦 and Free Palestine 🇵🇸!
All we need is to add the elemental breakdown. I'll put in the requests. Now to see what else can be discovered.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "Some_Nerd"​Hello all,
​
​I was looking through the 1909 Royal Mint Report (as one does)
​I loved that parenthetical remark :D Numismatic humor at its finest.

(I assume that if the mint report calls it nickel bronze so should we).
Status changed to Done (Jarcek, 12-Apr-2022, 23:49)
This is done, right? <:D
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