Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 22-Nov-2014, 22:47
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Posted: 22-Nov-2014, 22:47
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Hello, every body,
Just looked through my Sudan coins, and discovered that 1963 2 girsh is too different from other brothers under same KM# (36)
KM# 36 2 GHIRSH
Copper-Nickel, 20 mm. Obv: Legend and value above flower
sprigs Rev: Camel with rider running left
AH1382-1963 1,250,000 — 0.15 0.35 0.85 1.75
AH1386-1966 Proof — — — — — —
AH1387-1967 7,834 — 0.15 0.35 0.85 1.75
AH1387-1967 Proof 7,834 Value: 1.75
AH1388-1968 5,251 — 0.15 0.35 0.85 1.75
AH1388-1968 Proof 5,251 Value: 3.00
AH1389-1969 2,149 — 0.15 0.35 0.85 1.75
AH1389-1969 Proof 2,149 Value: 3.50
But 1963 coin has smaller mountains and rider, low relief, thin and low rim, thin "2"
while the 1967 has big mountains and rider, thick "2" , thick and high rim.
Then I checked all the coins in the KM Catalog, and found that only 2 girsh was struck in 1963, and no one from other denominations from " CAMEL" design.
So, I think it must be new KM. Tomorrow will make a pictures to show you that these 2 years ( 1963 and 1967) are quite defferent and shouldnot be listed under same KM number.
best
David
PetrusAscanus
Joined: 22-Nov-2014
Posts: 6304
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 00:12
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 00:12
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Non est totum quod splendet ut aurum
Rijkdom bestaat niet uit het hebben van veel bezittingen, maar in het hebben van weinig behoeften
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 08:03
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 08:03
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there is a wrong picture ( as well as in 2014 Krause ) . 2 girsh coin is not scalloped, its a round shape coin. Its a picture of 2 millemes
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 09:21
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 09:21
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hi,
well, here are promised pictures:
I think there is no doubts , they are totally different coins.
1963 VS 1967
There are so much differences , I think you will also find something from your side :)
1. main picture size ( camel+ rider )
2. Mountain size
3. main picture design (different engravers I guess) - different cord of lush, different face design, different camel leg thickness, different mountain ` style and so on
4. crossing of camel` legs : left foreleg in frot of right back leg VS right backleg in front of left foreleg
5. rim thickness
6. thin inscription VS thick inscription
7 thin and tall denomination VS thick denomination
8.large " QiRSH" VS small " QIRSH"
best regards
David
ALLRED1950
Joined: 2-Jul-2012
Posts: 4670
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 12:23
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 12:23
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good eye David. alot of good information. Thank you
It is, what it is, or is it.
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 12373
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 13:03
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 13:03
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Hi Data ,
a very nice find.
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 12373
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 14:56
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 14:56
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Hi David,
did you see my email?
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 21:31
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 21:31
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thank you , dear friends,
dont put your attention on coin size - its just photo and crop option fault. Coin diameter is same.
Ole, - sorry, - not yet, just came back home. Will see your mail in a few minutes
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 12373
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 22:43
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 22:43
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Hi,
so here is the documentation of Dato's find, which has been sent to KM, and will go into our variant site:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
util George Cuhaj gives his judgement
The doc
Dato/Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 23:07
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Posted: 23-Nov-2014, 23:07
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thank you, Ole,
great job ! I have already sent request to Numista catalogue
just a typo in #5: 1963, not 1962
Also, if it is interest: I have complete sets of 1967,1968,1970, and 1971 coins, and all of them are same 2 girsh to 1967, so I can conclude that 1963 is only year with different design
.
Not sure if in the same year ther could be other varietes, bit from my collection I can say that 1963 2 girs is not KM 36, and also not KM 33
thanks again best regards and happy collecting !
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 12373
Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 10:20
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Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 10:20
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Hi,
just so that I understand fully. Do we only talk about 1967, 68, 69, which were the km36? The 1970, km43.1, is that the same as the 1967 (bold "2")? What about the 1970, 71 with a fine "2", km43.2?
If the images in SCWC are correct, then
the 43.1 has the big "qhirsh" like the 1963, but a bold "2"?
the 43.2 has the small "qhirsh" like the 1967-69, but a fine "2"?
Can you confirmn this?
I'll only modify the documentation, when you have given me the answers. Up to now it's looking like this:
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 14:29
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Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 14:29
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Quote: SjoelundHi,
just so that I understand fully. Do we only talk about 1967, 68, 69, which were the km36? The 1970, km43.1, is that the same as the 1967 (bold "2")? What about the 1970, 71 with a fine "2", km43.2?
If the images in SCWC are correct, then
the 43.1 has the big "qhirsh" like the 1963, but a bold "2"?
the 43.2 has the small "qhirsh" like the 1967-69, but a fine "2"?
Can you confirmn this?
I'll only modify the documentation, when you have given me the answers. Up to now it's looking like this:
Ole
Im sorry, Ole,
of course, I mean only KM 36 years Sorry again.
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 12373
Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 15:10
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Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 15:10
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Hi Dato,
no problem with me, it's just better to have it cleared up beforehand
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 12373
Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 16:07
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Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 16:07
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Hi,
I just got this from the group:
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php
From Afrasi:
Of course, you are right! This is a long known mistake in KM.
They did it right for example at the 2 Millim pieces #30:
The circulation strike is #30.1 and the PP strike is #30.2.
The same way it should be here at the 2 Ghirsh pieces.
But in your documentation you should mention the right picture being the usual PP variant.
My answer:
Thank you for your confirmation.
What is a PP variant? Are you telling me that the 1963 can have the same design as the 1967?
I'm still discussing with Dato also about the the km43.1 and 43.2 to see, where they fit in with their designs. In the "km36" range, he has confirmes, that only the 1963 has the design to the left and 1968-69 have the right design, can you also confirm that?
Anyway I have to modify the documentation, since I had a tipo in #5 (1962 instead of 1963), so now I want to have the full "truth" before releasing the new version
From Afrasi:
Quote from: Globetrotter on Today at 10:25:53 AM
What is a PP variant?
Sorry! PP is a German term similar to Proof.
Quote from: Globetrotter on Today at 10:25:53 AM
Are you telling me that the 1963 can have the same design as the 1967?
All Proof coins of this type (1967,1968 and 1969) have the right design, the circulation strike (1963) has the left design. Additionally I have a heavily used piece of 1969 with the Proof design. Either it was a Proof coin entering circulation, or it there were coins made with the Proof dies. In modern Sudanes coinage everything is possible. Otherwise you are also correct saying coins of 1963 show the design of the left picture and all coins of 1967 - 1969 show the the design of the right picture.
btw: Has anyone ever seen a 1966Proof or a circulation strike of 1967/1968 mentioned in KM? I never saw these coins.
Quote from: Globetrotter on Today at 10:25:53 AM
I'm still discussing with Dato also about the the km43.1 and 43.2 to see, where they fit in with their designs. In the "km36" range, he has confirmes, that only the 1963 has the design to the left and 1968-69 have the right design, can you also confirm that?
The same it is with #43. The circulation strike with the large denomination is #43.1 and the Proofs of 1970 and 1971 are #43.2 with the small denomination.
I see it the Proof/circulation-strike way, Dato and you see it just by date. Both is probably correct.
Dato, I hope you understand Afrasi's comments?
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 17:09
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Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 17:09
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hello, Ole
Yes, I understand ,
but I dont agree to divide coinage on " proof issues" and " circulation isues under same KM.
If coins of 1963 and 1967/68/69 have the same diameter and denomination, it doesnot mean that we must to list all of them under one KM section. They are completely different coins, and at least they must be listed as 36.1 ( for 1963) and 36.2 ( for 1967/68/69 )
thank you very much for your discussion in worldofcoins .eu
best regards
David
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 12373
Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 18:29
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Posted: 24-Nov-2014, 18:29
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Hi Dato,
neither do I, for me the proof (a grade in the end) is just an extra column of grading and nothing else. Unfortunately the numista catalog makes a line for "proof" coins
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 4-Feb-2015, 11:17
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Posted: 4-Feb-2015, 11:17
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Sudan 2 Girsh 1963 was validated by PatGav. Thanks, Patrice !
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces67331.html
So, if someone has this type you can make changes in your collection.
thanks
Best regards
David
AmerSalmeh
Joined: 29-Jul-2014
Posts: 1687
Posted: 15-May-2017, 01:09
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Posted: 15-May-2017, 01:09
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Hello,
Just updated the 2 sheets now with all your documentations, and fixed few typos
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces15215.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces67331.html
thank you David and Ole for your amazing work
Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
https://www.instagram.com/amer.coins
Amer Salmeh
Essor Prof
Joined: 13-Apr-2015
Posts: 3784
Posted: 15-May-2017, 19:25
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Posted: 15-May-2017, 19:25
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Quote: "Sjoelund"neither do I, for me the proof (a grade in the end) is just an extra column of grading and nothing else. Unfortunately the numista catalog makes a line for "proof" coins
That's not correct, Ole. A proof is not a grade, it's a finish. When a proof coin gets into circulation, it's perfectly possible to have a proof coin in VF grade. And therefore a proof coin deserves it's own year line.
Quote: "Sjoelund"so here is the documentation of Dato's find, which has been sent to KM, and will go into our variant site:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
until George Cuhaj gives his judgement
This was 2.5 years ago. I've just checked the Krause 2017 edition but still no changes there. I know it will take some time so I guess we just have to wait longer and see if there will ever be a change. Dato is right, the differences are too big, the coin needs at least a new sub number if not a totally new number. But only KM can give new numbers/sub numbers.
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