What is your opinion on the status of AUSTRIA in the Numista catalog? [solved]

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As you may or may not know, the recent splitting of Austria in the Numista catalog brought both a large negative and a large positive reaction. It is pretty obvious that I am one of the main opponents of the split, so I wanted to contact Xavier and Ecapoe (the referee for the second Austria) regarding reunifying the country. However, I would like to know what the majority of Numista members think because I'm sure no one will let me force a change!

Here are the options:

1: The "one-state solution": Austria
2: The "two-state solution": Austria - Hapsburg and Austria - Republic
3: The "three-state solution": Austria - Archduchy, Austria - Empire, and Austria - Republic

Austria as it stands now: Austria and Austria - Hapsburg

Please see this forum thread discussing the Austrian split: Why was Austria split?

Voting ends Sunday, October 18th.

Thanks for sharing your opinion!
While we're setting up polls, who wants to see a 2015 Numista token? I have already contacted some guys in Hong Kong. You have 3 hours to submit your designs.
I vote for option 1: just Austria.
  • It's simple
  • It allows for continuity
  • There's no reason to split Austria, its split quite well already with the currencies. If you want, create "dynasties": Archduchy, Empire, and Republic.
  • See the numerous other reasons that I discussed in Why was Austria split?
Quote: "nalaberong"​While we're setting up polls, who wants to see a 2015 Numista token? I have already contacted some guys in Hong Kong. You have 3 hours to submit your designs.
​Ha ha, so funny (but not)!! :D

Have you noticed that the two people who were taking the most proactive role are kind of gone (to say the least)?

[sarcasm]You can take over if you want but I sure as heck won't be.[/sarcasm]
Option # 2, as it is now (two-way split). Thanks.
I don't send via registered mail with very few exceptions.
1 Austria
#2
Thank you everyone for stating your opinions!!
#2
Kenny

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#1
I think there should be a complete overhaul of all the countries. Come up with a general rule for splitting countries and then stick to it. Because at the moment there seems to be a different thing happening every time the question of dividing up a country comes up.
I have read all the forum posts and must admit its above me, persoanlly l think you are correct when you say its already split with the different currencies. I think, from a user freindly veiw, any nation that has had the same name would benefit from being united.
However there might be lots of reasons l dont understand for a split, I havent actually read any good arguments for ether option, just a bunch of opinions. I would like to know why, but l must stay out of voting. Thanks for all the hard work from both sides of this debate.
Most importantly lets stay united even if we dont agree on how things might run.
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!

Looking for pre 1783 coins
Quote: "neilithic"​I think there should be a complete overhaul of all the countries. Come up with a general rule for splitting countries and then stick to it. Because at the moment there seems to be a different thing happening every time the question of dividing up a country comes up.
​Agree! Make up your mind!
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Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
#2
I don't care, as long as I can find any Austrian coin then the catalogue is doing its job, which it is.

Just curious, but those demanding the change and protesting with childish sig's all pay for the server hosting the catalogue right? I mean you yell like you have the right to demand things so you must own some of it and be part of the admins who created it in the beginning?

Protests are absolutely absurd when it is to do with a forum or website, you only have the right to ask or suggest by giving your own opinion and I don't mean ramming your opinion down everybody's throat like you are, Don't spin the "if it wasn't for us the site wouldn't exist blah blah." when the truth is you could all leave and the site would still happily carry on with other referee's coming and going over time adding and changing the catalogue, That's fact.

Acting like spoilt little children stamping their feet until they get what they want, very childish in the way it is being presented.

Its a catalogue, not the fate of Austria as we know it.8)

There, that's my opinion on this absurd "Austria" topic.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
Quote: "Fluke"​I don't care, as long as I can find any Austrian coin then the catalogue is doing its job, which it is.

​Just curious, but those demanding the change and protesting with childish sig's all pay for the server hosting the catalogue right? I mean you yell like you have the right to demand things so you must own some of it and be part of the admins who created it in the beginning?

​Protests are absolutely absurd when it is to do with a forum or website, you only have the right to ask or suggest by giving your own opinion and I don't mean ramming your opinion down everybody's throat like you are, Don't spin the "if it wasn't for us the site wouldn't exist blah blah." when the truth is you could all leave and the site would still happily carry on with other referee's coming and going over time adding and changing the catalogue, That's fact.

​Acting like spoilt little children stamping their feet until they get what they want, very childish in the way it is being presented.

​Its a catalogue, not the fate of Austria as we know it.8)

​There, that's my opinion on this absurd "Austria" topic.



​I agree in part, but if you have put a lot of work into a section and someone comes and changes it then you do have a right top be upset.

For example: I have put in quite a bit of work in the New Zealand merchant/trader tokens section. I have it listed as part of the New Zealand country section, because although it says token, like the British Conder tokens and Canadian bank tokens they were made to fill a shortage of low denomination coins and were accepted by all as valid currency. I have cleaned up the tokens that were already there, adding in the variants, pictures, rarity scale and new catalogue numbers, then I have been going through and adding all the tokens that were not already in existence (about 50-60 so far with another 40 or so to go)

If someone came along and said "hey, this says tokens, It's in the wrong place" and shoved it into the abyss that is the tokens section, then I reserve the right to act like a spoiled little child stamping my feet until I get what I want"
Numista is a Wiki-style catalog - anyone who uses it has the right to be upset. That doesn't mean the get what they want! ;)

There is a difference between the right to be upset and the right to have what you want. Obviously I don't have the right to get what I want (by myself)!
1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
This split has hurt me horribly. It's like splitting up Great Britain and United Kingdom in the Numista catalog!
Quote: "ngdawa"
Quote: "neilithic"​I think there should be a complete overhaul of all the countries. Come up with a general rule for splitting countries and then stick to it. Because at the moment there seems to be a different thing happening every time the question of dividing up a country comes up.
​​Agree! Make up your mind!
​this gets my vote, #4, "country split up rules" instead of a great victory for Austria, lets find a victory for all nations in numista.
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!

Looking for pre 1783 coins
Yes, I agree with this as well - we should have formal rules which define a country.

And PS: merging all the Germanys is not as crazy as it sounds - look at Vietnam (before Vietnam - Empire). Only DDR would have to be seperated based on this logic.

However, this thread addresses AUSTRIA and only Austria, which (maybe?) could be used as a precedent for every country.

And so far it is a close race: 4 for #1 and 4 for #2.
My vote is for #2
-DMK-  Just a collector with hoarding tendencies.
1
Buying gold and electrum coins 700bc-1950ad
Muenzenhamster is a healthy part of our community and should not be censored
Quote: "neilithic"

​If someone came along and said "hey, this says tokens, It's in the wrong place" and shoved it into the abyss that is the tokens section, then I reserve the right to act like a spoiled little child stamping my feet until I get what I want"
I do not disagree that you have the right to be upset at all, I fully agree to that, but shoving it in the face of everyone on the forum the way it has been is acting like child disrupting the classroom and splashing protest graffiti everywhere.

Take it up with those responsible via PM, make a poll without it looking like a witch hunt with torches and pitchforks which is how I perceive it. I certainly can't take it serious the way it is being conducted. (apparently this is all meant to be humorous and that I have no sense of humour, I cant really tell for sure all the way up here on the pedestal I have apparently put myself on)

Contact those responsible via private messaging, ask why it has happened and request it be put back unless the way it has been changed to is not like tossing it into the abyss. Has any work put in been deleted or just altered?

Regardless how it is looked at, it is still bound to Austria is it not?, not an abyss like "European coins" for example.

I have already said I really do not care what is done with any country as long as I can find the coin I am searching for, I have no opinion either way things are changed, only the way this is being conducted.

My opinions are raw and blunt, this is no secret but getting offended by someone else's opinion is pointless as I am nothing more than an internet personality, text on a screen. I am fully entitled to my own opinion regardless if someone feels a little burned by my wording, I am blunt, opinionated and not afraid to state things just the way I perceive them.

I am not the first person to point out this is childish the way it is being handled, The private message I just received from dptashny is a testament to that and strengthens my view even more now.

Hasn't there been enough drama here lately?
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
1.

could still have the split within the country. Just don't like seeing all 3 as different countries
I won't be voting. Not because I don't care but because I don't fully understand the issues, so for me at least it's premature. I think both sides need to present their case more fully and have it subject to (polite) questioning. I have however followed the discussion with some interest and have hopefully learned something along the way.

I do like the idea of establishing a framework for defining how, or even if, a country should be separated. I'm quite partial to having standards even if they are ignored by people who should know better as in the denominations fiasco.

It seems to me that there is a trend to separate countries just for the sake of it. Historically you can easily make an argument for doing so. Let me give you an example, there is no real similarity between Victoria's Great Britain and Elizabeth's apart from the name. What was an homogenous industrial powerhouse, hub of a worldwide Empire and a true military superpower is now a multicultural country on the fringe both politically and geographically of Europe with no real power apart from lingering financial traditions. These two Britains are much less similar than the Austria of 1840 and 1870. Yet it would make no sense to separate them from a numismatic standpoint. The point being of course that we shouldn't consider anything other than how a proposed change mirrors the way in which we collect coins. Bugger the historical accuracy, I want ease of use and numismatic consistency!

A final thought, I don't trust polls. The winning entry is the one with the most persuasive proponents, not always the most merit. I don't wish to be harsh but how many of those voting are well enough versed in Austria's history to be able to have a valid opinion. Sometimes it comes down to nothing more than "Dan* pissed me off last week so I'm voting no" Take a look at a few world leaders and tell me again how great democracy is.

I seem to recall that last time a bunch of people got together and voted to unify Austria it didn't work out too well.

*Or Phil, or Neil, or Imreh....
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Well first let me say,I don't know enough of Austria's history . And I think people who live in Austria should have more to say on the out come. And I fully agree with Phil on this.
The biggest thing I don't under stand is why are we breaking up country's, when in the catalog they are already. Like if you go to the UK and open it up.You get a box.
Pound sterling {1158-1971}
Conder tokens (1787-1797)
Pound sterling (decimalized 1971- todate)
ECU (1979-1995)
You just hit the area you want to work in, and you are there. What is wrong with that. You don't have to go though every thing to get to the area you want to work in. Why do we need to make two different country's. I hope it not to get a coin from another country. Me I think there are some country's in are catalog that should not be there. But that is just me.
yours daryl
It is, what it is, or is it.
Firstly, apologies for the brash previous few posts I made last night, unusual side effects from my meds can project a unsavoury personality, as shown above.

I agree with Phils point about polls, they are not the right way to go, a poll can end 49-51 which will hardly constitute a just result.
Allred has said it in plain English for me to understand better as well. I wont have an opinion either way as I am still learning the ropes and have a long way to go before I can consider myself highly experienced enough to join in a conversation like this.

I don't agree that it has been handled very well, the retina burning graffiti in peoples signatures and avatars is distracting away any seriousness of this "Protest", thus making it seem pointless, as well as dealing with it "Witch hunt" style.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
Okay, I am happy to discuss the reunification of Austria in the Numista catalog - in a civilized way!

I understand that poll results are not perfect, and I will admit that I did not think of this when designing my "plan of action". Also, if the results do favor option number one, this doesn't mean that it will actually be carried out, Xavier and Ecapoe will just be aware of this and can obviously make their own decision accordingly.

Fine, you're partially right that the whole avatar (and signature) thing makes the protest seem less serious. The avatar thing was just meant to be a bit of fun, and the signature made it a bit over-the-top (sorry Zulu!). I changed my avatar to just an Austrian coin and added a line in my signature like Dato did with Abkhazia.

Also, I will prepare a thread explaining why Austria should be reunited, to explain it better to some of our members who may not understand the issue 100%.

Finally, I fully support a standardized rule for splitting countries. I think it would be easier with as few countries as possible, just look at how Mexico is split:
  • Colonial - Real (1535-1821)
  • War of Independence - Real (1810-1822)
  • Empire of Iturbide - Real (1821-1823)
  • Republic - Real (1823-1897)
  • Empire of Maximiliano - Peso (1864-1867)
  • Republic - Peso (1863-1905)
  • Estados Unidos - Peso (1905-1992)
  • Estados Unidos - New Peso (1992-date)
  • Silver bullion
  • Gold bullion
  • Platinum bullion

This would work for Austria, it would work for Germany and it would work for plenty of other countries in the Numista catalog. Of course, the 300 countries club wouldn't survive the overall! :D
Are you confused in this whole Austrian debate? See my new thread, which explains my position (a unified Austria) on this issue:

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic44196.html
Quote: "ALLRED1950"​ Well first let me say,I don't know enough of Austria's history . And I think people who live in Austria should have more to say on the out come. And I fully agree with Phil on this.
​ The biggest thing I don't under stand is why are we breaking up country's, when in the catalog they are already. Like if you go to the UK and open it up.You get a box.
​Pound sterling {1158-1971}
​Conder tokens (1787-1797)
​Pound sterling (decimalized 1971- todate)
​ECU (1979-1995)
​You just hit the area you want to work in, and you are there. What is wrong with that. You don't have to go though every thing to get to the area you want to work in. Why do we need to make two different country's. I hope it not to get a coin from another country. Me I think there are some country's in are catalog that should not be there. But that is just me.
​ yours daryl
​That Allred said it best, hes smarter than the rest,

much like this,
"Finally, I fully support a standardized rule for splitting countries. I think it would be easier with as few countries as possible, just look at how Mexico is split:"

I think its best to find a currency under its national name.
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!

Looking for pre 1783 coins
I also like the way Erdvilla has set up the Mexican section, with the exception of bullion, which being Exonumia shouldn't really be listed in with the coins from the country.
It seems like there is now discussion about how to standardize splitting up of countries, so I'm marking this thread solved.
Quote: "neilithic"​I also like the way Erdvilla has set up the Mexican section, with the exception of bullion, which being Exonumia shouldn't really be listed in with the coins from the country.
​Well, Krause considers them coins because they are annual official country issues (you could say they are a different currency; Ounce). There are a ton of Silver and Gold medals made by the Mexico City Mint as well, but those are single year issues and for that are clearly considered Medals -exonumia-. With this said, some of the coins currently in the Bullion sections will eventually be moved to the Token section once in future North American Coins & Prices books they are added or ignored for a KM#.

As for the whole division Montana2011 also has the credit, my naming as 2nd referee just gave him the extra push to go for it :P

And yes, I always wondered by Germany doesn't use the same method of separation, but never touched the issue because I am no expert; Mexico itself has a division that was a necessity "Mexico - Revolutionary", the reason for it to be split are:
-Two governments or more at the same time.
-Internal division.
-Two incompatible currency systems (you couldn't exchange Revolutionary Pesos for Mexican Pesos, you'd get a bullet in return).
-But overall the main reason why I am sure Krause made the split was because of catalog order; the Revolution was a turmoil, so new coins appeared every now and then in the collector's World, so Krause has only allocated 100 KM numbers for the period, but suddenly found out many many more were needed and rather than leaping all over the place mixing them with the subsequent Mexico ones, they decided to split and keep counting from where they left, hence why they can't be mixed anymore because most KM# would duplicate.

I don't know Germany and Austria situation, but if these conditions weren't present I don't see why the split must be kept, they can be merged and use the historical currency separations as in main Mexico.
Numista referee for the "Viceroyalty of the New Spain" (most of it).
History through coins.
Eli V
As such I don't care, if I could still use just "Austria" as a search criteria as well, even if my coin belongs into any of the other Austrias..... I go for the easy search methods:love: Technically it ought to be possible, right?

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
I decided to not vote as considering the Archduchy a German state. Furthermore, this section says nothing about Austrian states. But it seems to be a little late anyway.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
You might have noticed, that I didn't vote either, I just asked for a logical 4th option;) I'm sure nobody will even try to consider, if my suggestion is valid or not?

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Just tried to write "Austria" in quick research. Seems to include all Austria coins (including Austr[al]ia and Austrian Netherlands).
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Try Austria and km2826 and you get nothing.....

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
I did. It worked. Just add # between km & number
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Hi,

this doesn't work for me, see the result here, or I put the # in a wrong place?

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Oh, I was thinking you told to do so in the easy search (8
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Ohz|, but I never ever use that, but it came out all rightx.


Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com

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