Temporary closure of the catalog (Proposal!)

129 posts

This message aims at: suggesting an idea to improve Numista

Status: Rejected
Upvotes: 4
Downvotes: 0

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Dear Xavier,

I propose a temporary closure of the catalog, this means that members for some time will no longer be able to submit change requests. The backlog in validating these requests is too large and we (the team and referees) simply will never be able to eliminate this backlog if there won't be a closure. Members currently have to wait upto 6 months before their requests are being validated which I consider to be way too long. People get annoyed and will stop contributing, which is not good for Numista.

Niels
I think we need more dedicated people validating requests. I validate my requests within a few hours but I get very few. Closing the catalog all the time just won't work.
Quote: "dptashny"​I think we need more dedicated people validating requests. I validate my requests within a few hours but I get very few. Closing the catalog all the time just won't work.
​This is a temporary solution indeed, referees and team members who are no longer active or are incompetent should be changed.
I can see the merit in that logic. Finding more people to try and shift the load is good in theory, but closing the catalogue is an immediate solution that can be applied.

I would say it is a good idea to give the team and ref's some time to get through what is already there waiting.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
There are some countries people can't ask for quick answers as referees which are still active have a busy real life or big investigations to do before validating. Some others are no more active, or have no referee. It would depend on most factors as expected.

Lorraine for example is a quite unknown country, except for medieval/feudal coinage fans. My "work" is quite small, except managing old pages and creating new ones by my own, I've very few requests.

However there are other countries in which I remember there were more and more angering contributors, like (mainly in French side, but this may have consequences in this side too) Gaul. I applied in the same time for Gaul and for Lorraine. As a newbie in managing the catalog, I was granted Lorraine only. However, I think it may be time to give Gaul to someone or we'll have more and more angry people, which may stop contributing for real.

This is one example only...

However, I would add this temporary closure may have a backlash: if contributing is forbidden for a too much long time, the website will lose more and more contributers, maybe more than due to the backlog.

I think it would be better to have a serious talk about which countries have a strong backlog and try to solve this country by country, and some of these talks may have to be done in the Referee forum. The only public part of this emergency work would be to register any troubles due to the backlog.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
We should have a real push for new referees and an audit of the ones we have. There's really no point having a referee for a country who is not active.
Quote: "neilithic"​We should have a real push for new referees and an audit of the ones we have. There's really no point having a referee for a country who is not active.
​My proposal in more professional words ;)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Its important to have not just dedicated referees but dedicated catalog admins as well. Those are the people with the big backlog.
Quote: "dptashny"​Its important to have not just dedicated referees but dedicated catalog admins as well. Those are the people with the big backlog.
​While you are right about that I have to say that there is also an enormous backlog in the requests that have to be verified by team members (for countries that have no referee)..
Quote: "Euromunt"
Quote: "dptashny"​Its important to have not just dedicated referees but dedicated catalog admins as well. Those are the people with the big backlog.
​​While you are right about that I have to say that there is also an enormous backlog in the requests that have to be verified by team members (for countries that have no referee)..
​That's the point I'm trying to make.
I don't really feel like this will fix anything. The broken part of the process is that there is not enough people to approve changes. Even if the catalog is closed for a time, unless there are more people appointed for approval we will be right back where we were in short order. Since participation is high (usually something websites have problems with) we should punish those who want to participate. I don't mind the long wait time as much as some people seem to, and I certainly prefer it to not being able to make changes.
Quote: "jadejackal"​I don't really feel like this will fix anything. The broken part of the process is that there is not enough people to approve changes.
​In order to keep the participation current and or increase it, this has to be fixed. The site needs more catalog admins and referees that are active; and that are not "pro one country" (as several of the present admins are).

Closing the catalog will do more harm than good, especially to the new members trying to input their collection.
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
Let's start to focus on the main point: where we need new referees, new catalogue administrators and increased functions of existing admins/referees. This would be necessary before asking Xavier (in holidays now) to do anything.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
It would be nice to know what parts of the catalog have the largest backlog. Some countries might need multiple referees to handle the load.
In order to help us registering such backlogs, you would be welcome to give us here your issues with your own change requests if you're not a referee. I'm starting a new topic in the Referee forum to collect as much data as possible about these backlog issues from both French and English forum.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I currently have backlogged requests for China - People's Republic (since 27 Nov), Ethiopia (since 31 Oct), and Tajikistan (since 31 Oct).
I have a backlog for Myanmar but there's no referee there in the first place.

My Dutch additions were processed after a week or so. I have a proposal to move some Eastern Prussian coins from Poland to German States pending for a few days but that one is also subject for debate.
Quote: "chomp-master"​In order to help us registering such backlogs, you would be welcome to give us here your issues with your own change requests if you're not a referee. I'm starting a new topic in the Referee forum to collect as much data as possible about these backlog issues from both French and English forum.
​These stats can be viewed by the team members and Xavier so there is no need to gather them via the members.
The closing of the catalogue would not be a temporary solution and it doesn't necessarily mean it will repeat either.

Catalogue closed so referee's and admins alike can catch up with the backlog, During this period there can be a full audit of members of the team who are inactive. During that shut down period new referee's can be called for and can be ready to join in as the backlog clears. It isn't close the catalogue and reopen it with the same issues currently active.

While all of that is happening the backlog is being cleared. Why waste time doing an audit and allowing the backlog to grow even more when all of it can be dealt with in one blow. I am sure the team are capable of multitasking.

The team need some breathing room, I say give it to them.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
I like the idea of taking Care of the back log and checking referee status at the same time. What does a referee need to do? Check if coin is valid check the data ? I might want to help out in this area if someone is willing to teach me what to do. I am pretty passionate about my collection and want to do whatever I can to help this amazing site get better.
Quote: "Eerovisser"​I like the idea of taking Care of the back log and checking referee status at the same time. What does a referee need to do? Check if coin is valid check the data ? I might want to help out in this area if someone is willing to teach me what to do. I am pretty passionate about my collection and want to do whatever I can to help this amazing site get better.
​I would also be happy to help with the backlog, and to be a referee if that would be a help.
Referee for Pre-Euro Ireland
I'll also join in here: my expertise is not in any one specific country, so I would be happy to be a catalog admin (NOT a referee for more countries).
I have said for a while now there should be a sweeping up squad for certain areas. The referee system stops admin from taking requests for 2 weeks.

Faults I find to date.

only admin can merge pages.
referees cannot add further date lines when ND has been selected which is an issue.

we have contributors who are continuously working on the catalogue and their work is flawless. I suggest once a certain milestone of good entries is achieved that these people are allowed to contribute immediately then the referee can simply skim over as an over check.

I feel a lot of countries could do with 2 referees I know it can be hard but you might find that if you have another referee to work with you can also lend a hand to others in areas you're knowledgeable of (I only collect British colonies and can really help in other areas but the work load I currently have would prohibit expanding my help much further, some admin powers need to be passed down to make administrating easier.
Quote: "Mark240590"​we have contributors who are continuously working on the catalogue and their work is flawless. I suggest once a certain milestone of good entries is achieved that these people are allowed to contribute immediately then the referee can simply skim over as an over check.

​I love this idea
As I said, we were getting close to a drama for Gaul which still has no referee, and for which I applied as well as for Lorraine. But if there is another way to help...
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
What exactly are the responsibilities for the referees and administrators. Is there any documentation on this site that defines their function.
Quote: "neilithic"
Quote: "Mark240590"​we have contributors who are continuously working on the catalogue and their work is flawless. I suggest once a certain milestone of good entries is achieved that these people are allowed to contribute immediately then the referee can simply skim over as an over check.

​​I love this idea
​I second that.
Quote: "dptashny"
Quote: "neilithic"

Quote: "Mark240590"​we have contributors who are continuously working on the catalogue and their work is flawless. I suggest once a certain milestone of good entries is achieved that these people are allowed to contribute immediately then the referee can simply skim over as an over check.
​​
​​
​​​I love this idea
​​I second that.
​Makes perfect sense to me
Just because you can't see it ... doesn't mean it isn't there - Anon.

Coin catalogue referee for England, United Kingdom & pre-Union South Africa.
Banknote catalogue referee for England & United Kingdom.
I think we need more people that make almost perfect editions proposal, which don't need to be corrected, as it's not the case currently.
Quote: "KAISERKILLERfr08"​I think we need more people that make almost perfect editions proposal, which don't need to be corrected, as it's not the case currently.
​That's true as well but we can't control that.
Quote: "KAISERKILLERfr08"​I think we need more people that make almost perfect editions proposal, which don't need to be corrected, as it's not the case currently.
​which is why I think the ones who do should be allowed to make the entries without the need for a referee to check, it should still highlight to the referee it's been edited but should be ok. Be it by amount of approved edits or by the referee selecting them as a "Valued contributor" this way it lightens the referee workload too :) which in turn would free up some of their time to muck in with other countries they're familiar with :)
Quote: "Mark240590"​​which is why I think the ones who do should be allowed to make the entries without the need for a referee to check,
​For your information, requests made by Numista Team Members for a country with a referee also first need to be validated by that referee. This is a fairly new thing and one of the worst decisions in the history of Numista.
Quote: "Euromunt"
Quote: "Mark240590"​​which is why I think the ones who do should be allowed to make the entries without the need for a referee to check,
​​For your information, requests made by Numista Team Members for a country with a referee also first need to be validated by that referee. This is a fairly new thing and one of the worst decisions in the history of Numista.
​Yes I agree. Especially when the referee can't even make that action themselves (think when I asked you to change the year on that Israeli coin).
Quote: "Euromunt"
Quote: "Mark240590"​​which is why I think the ones who do should be allowed to make the entries without the need for a referee to check,
​​For your information, requests made by Numista Team Members for a country with a referee also first need to be validated by that referee. This is a fairly new thing and one of the worst decisions in the history of Numista.
I've noticed that and find it ridiculous to be frank..​
Quote: "Euromunt"
Quote: "Mark240590"​​which is why I think the ones who do should be allowed to make the entries without the need for a referee to check,
​​For your information, requests made by Numista Team Members for a country with a referee also first need to be validated by that referee. This is a fairly new thing and one of the worst decisions in the history of Numista.
​NO! Do you know how many times a famous member of the team put a total mess in my work and how many hours I needed to repair his shambles?
Now it is theoretically impossible and that's a good thing!
Quote: "Mark240590"
Quote: "KAISERKILLERfr08"​I think we need more people that make almost perfect editions proposal, which don't need to be corrected, as it's not the case currently.
​​which is why I think the ones who do should be allowed to make the entries without the need for a referee to check, it should still highlight to the referee it's been edited but should be ok. Be it by amount of approved edits or by the referee selecting them as a "Valued contributor" this way it lightens the referee workload too :) which in turn would free up some of their time to muck in with other countries they're familiar with :)

No, because for a serious referee which is confronted at a complete and almost perfect request, made by someone of conscientious, it's always a pleasure to validate quickly.

The main goal of the function of referees is to warrant the quality of the catalog and with your proposal this task can't be realized - or if it can be, it would be only a posteriori, which it means that referees would have even more work to do.
I'm sure there's a way for valued contributors to have their work instantly approved and a highlight to pop up to check it have a glance. If is no good there could be a reverse button I guess. It's getting a little far fetched now but I genuinely believe there are 10 people I could rattle off now that I know.. For a fact I wouldn't have to check their work.
I think Referees should be more like auditors. All pages created can go in the catalogue. At the end of each week or month the referees could be sent a report of all the additions made to their country. If everything is ok, they don't need to do anything and it remains in the catalogue, if there is an issue, they can send it back to the contributor to correct, or delete it altogether if needs be.
Quote: "neilithic"​I think Referees should be more like auditors. All pages created can go in the catalogue. At the end of each week or month the referees could be sent a report of all the additions made to their country. If everything is ok, they don't need to do anything and it remains in the catalogue, if there is an issue, they can send it back to the contributor to correct, or delete it altogether if needs be.
​Unfortunately a very large percentage of the creation requests that are being submitted doesn't comply with the Guildelines for editing the catalog. I guess people will get annoyed if the catalog is every time (temporary) being flooded with these pages.
Quote: "Mark240590"​I'm sure there's a way for valued contributors to have their work instantly approved and a highlight to pop up to check it have a glance.
​Xavier has been made aware of this idea in the past, he didn't like it and it has never been implemented.
Such a shame. Sometimes good ideas are shelved or totally dismissed in dictatorships ha !
Bad idea. Just because some countries have a huge backlog doesn't mean others have to suffer because of it.

If the editors were sitting idle, twiddling their thumbs, it would be a disaster because it would mean the site is dying. In a perfect world, all requests would be cross-examined by multiple editors and processed instantly, but we don't live in a perfect world, so there will always be some queued up. If too many of them don't follow the guidelines, spend less time fixing them and decline. Just be sure you understand why the change is being requested and be specific in explaining why you declined.
HoH
We do have some countries with a big backlog but the biggest problem are the requests for countries without a referee. These have to be verified by team members but not a single team members seems to feel responsible for them, resulting in a huge backlog that we will never be able to eliminate if the catalog stays opened. While we are holding this discussion the backlog is only getting larger and larger. Anyway I believe that people who aren't team members can't have the closest idea of how bad the situation currently is.
Tell us which countries are severely affected.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "Euromunt"​We do have some countries with a big backlog but the biggest problem are the requests for countries without a referee. These have to be verified by team members but not a single team members seems to feel responsible for them, resulting in a huge backlog that we will never be able to eliminate if the catalog stays opened. While we are holding this discussion the backlog is only getting larger and larger. Anyway I believe that people who aren't team members can't have the closest idea of how bad the situation currently is.
​why dont we implement an extra referee too each country then allowing others to help the cause further, there are some countries without a ref I could do but I currently have quite a workload with what I'm already doing. Meaning any that I can take on right now would have to be either de-Funked countries or small nations
Quote: "chomp-master"​Tell us which countries are severely affected.
​I will post figures and statistics later today.
Quote: "Euromunt"​We do have some countries with a big backlog but the biggest problem are the requests for countries without a referee. These have to be verified by team members but not a single team members seems to feel responsible for them, resulting in a huge backlog that we will never be able to eliminate if the catalog stays opened. While we are holding this discussion the backlog is only getting larger and larger. Anyway I believe that people who aren't team members can't have the closest idea of how bad the situation currently is.
​It's better to have these requests queued up on Numista than for people to see they can't submit at all and forget/give up on Numista. All it would do is make the size of the queue that you see smaller without actually reducing the number of things that have to be fixed/added. Even if members have to wait a month+ for it to be processed, at least that much of their contribution will remain.

Imagine if a software company said, well, sorry, we've too many bugs to fix so we're not going to take any more bug reports - lalala... That would be the surest way to lose their customers.

What *might* help is if a request hasn't been processed after a week, generate an email to the submitter saying something like "sorry this is taking so long, but there are x many unprocessed requests we have to look at before we can handle yours. Meanwhile, feel free to submit requests (especially, for other countries)."
HoH
Quote: "Houseofham"Even if members have to wait a month+ for it to be processed, at least that much of their contribution will remain.

​What *might* help is if a request hasn't been processed after a week, generate an email to the submitter saying something like "sorry this is taking so long, but there are x many unprocessed requests we have to look at before we can handle yours. Meanwhile, feel free to submit requests (especially, for other countries)."
​Currently some members have canceled their requests because they have had to wait too long. Furthermore I keep getting flooded with messages from people who have had to wait too long. I don't know if that's the same for the other team members but this also keeps me from verifying requests, as I need to reply to all of them.
For every 2 requests that are being submitted 1 is being verified. This means that the backlog is only growing. There are currently 1359 pending requests:

- 771 of these requests are for countries without a referee. As there are only 8 team members this would mean that every team member would need to verify 96 requests to eliminate this part of the backlog.

- 588 of these requests are for countries with a referee, below you can see the name of the referee and the number of pending requests.

*Important: Some referees only work for 1 country, others work for upto 6 countries.



Then I have also made a list of number of pending requests per country which you can view here.

Niels
357 requests for Tokens, how are those taken care of? Team members or referees of the country the token belongs to?

What are ghost requests?

Just wanted to say thank you Niels for giving us all the inside information. Again if someone teaches me all the responsibility I would offer my time to become a Referee of a country without one.
Quote: "Eerovisser"​357 requests for Tokens, how are those taken care of? Team members or referees of the country the token belongs to?

​What are ghost requests?

​Just wanted to say thank you Niels for giving us all the inside information. Again if someone teaches me all the responsibility I would offer my time to become a Referee of a country without one.
​1. Tokens are being taken care of by the Team Members
2. In this list ghost requests are creation requests in which the person who has submitted the request has not indicated to which country the coin of the request belongs.
Closing the catalog isn't going to help, it just kicks the can down the road. Close it for a month or a year, it's all the same result. As soon as it's reopened there will be a torrent of often badly formatted requests you can't keep up with and we will be right back where we started. Closing the catalog to new entries , even temporarily, will do great damage to Numista's viability in return for a zero gain.

There are two misconceptions being discussed here, one - that it's a workload issue and two - we need more referees and administrators. Both may appear true at a simplistic level but they are equally wrong. While it's true there is a workload issue it's a symptom of the real problem, ineffective management. We don't need more referees, we need better ones.

So having identified the problems do I have any solutions? Well, yeah but they won't suit everyone and I'm sure they could be further improved. The solutions are intertwined... you can't have one without the others. Here we go, from the top down-

1. Management. There is no vision, no attempt to create a vision and no attempt to communicate any such thoughts. The website was abandoned for over a year with no explanation, no assurance that it won't happen again. Numista was recently offline for the best part of three days, nobody was kept informed apart from some attempts on Facebook from those who clearly didn't know any more than we did. How hard is it to put up a temporary advisory of the problem and an ETA of a fix? Even now nobody knows what happened. Quality contributors are not going to be attracted by such an amateurish environment. Nor will they be attracted by rude kids talking down to them on a regular basis.

2. Administrators. First they need to be reined in and closely supervised. Their roles need to be exactly defined. There seems to be a growing (self) belief that their roles are managerial rather than purely administrative and given the often poor standard, this is very alarming. A bum like Eitan being given any kind of a managerial role is something which would be a deal breaker for many members. Please don't be pleading for a catalog shutdown when y'all have the spare time to be posing as "The Voice of Numista", destroying the tokens section or making nonsensical changes to non Latin denominations. How much time is squandered on these vanity projects which could have been better spent clearing the backlogs? Quit with the self promotion and empire building and concentrate on the issues at hand. We need better quality, properly vetted applicants with the right mix of energy, experience and the ability to get along with others. How was Eitan vetted and against what criteria was his application judged? If such applicants can't be found then we need to create an atmosphere which will attract them. (see item #1.)

3. Referees. Again, the lack of management is the problem. Can someone explain to me why kids who know nothing abut either numismatics or their particular country can be appointed simply by waving their front paws around but a high quality, experienced applicant like Erdvilla has to spend months trying to get an appointment which was supported by everyone? Want to increase the quantity and quality of referees? First lay down a set of minimum standards in terms of experience and ethics and communicate them! Follow that up by treating these volunteers with the respect they deserve instead of the high handed condescension they often find.

4. Members. If a part of the problem is submissions which don't follow the guidelines then instead of publicly humiliating them why not take a look at how the standards are written and displayed. Maybe that's where the problem arises. Currently all I see is people jockeying for power, either as a means to steal coins or to feed personal vanities and agendas. Intelligent criticism is dismissed with a shrug and a "we know best" attitude. You can't complain about the issues of a disengaged membership until you stop being a part of the problem.

General-
  • Until the current issues can be addressed all the non urgent improvements should be put on ice. New smiley faces are not a high priority.
  • Start an effort to engage members instead of excluding them. Having now gotten into a situation where decisions are taken by a tiny inner circle it's most unhelpful. Don't complain that most members are siting it out when you have taken every measure to exclude them.
  • Remove all inactive or incompetent appointees at every level.
  • Quit making major changes without consulting members. The message of such actions is clear, "We don't want any kind of partnership, we want obedient slaves to do the work while we preen and take the credit".
  • Consider the benefits of a community managed model in the ColNect manner where respected, mature members take care of much of the managerial duties at the user level leaving the owner to concentrate on development.
  • Consider, again following the ColNect model, a system of rewarding contributors with a few premium perks and some public recognition. They use a star system 1-5 and offer a few nice extra features which might be too hard to implement for everyone.
  • Create a framework where issues or proposals can be resolved / progressed calmly in the best manner for everyone, not the agenda of a minority.

It's really not that hard.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
The big problem here is that Xavier doesn't want Numista to become a professional website. While I agree with most things above, I am disappointed by your remarks about certain referees and team members who work hard and try to make the best of it. Without any leadership, mistakes can happen and these members shouldn't be humiliated over and over. These people work on here with the best intentions.

In the text above, you know verry well about which members I am talking and also about which members I am not talking.

There is no place on Numista for your cynical references. Or say the names or shut your mouth, as you seem to be too coward to write names, keep your mouth shut about these kind of things.
I still disagree about closing making no difference.

If it is closed for a few weeks and in those few weeks a lot more referees are found, then of course it wont be the same when reopened, there will be a lot more referees to deal with the incoming surge which follows.

Think of it "closed for refurbishments" with the request all submissions stop for this time period to clear the backlog. I am sure collectors can compose themselves enough to put additions on hold.

All those stating it wont work is not basically stating they wish the referees to still have a huge backlog. 2 birds with one stone is applicable here.

Backlog cleared or reduced and new referee's added to come with the re-opening.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
I agree to say there are some ones who need a serious help as making as much as they can. Some others that I know they've very much work. I don't know the situation of everyone, and there a too much countries with no referee.

I would like to help with some ones, but which ones???

I suggested to take care of Gaul, but it seems we called so much in the French side about it that finally Gaul requests are often treated quickly. But as this country was close to provoke a drama, a referee would become an emergency soon, even there is a low amounts of requests. Maybe this would let admins much time to reduce the backlog.

Now, we need to know who is still active, who has a low activity time for personal or professional reasons. I've a few informations for a few ones, but not all of them. Maybe some people has more news to give about those highly backlogged countries.

And please do not forget we are in the Christmas and New Year period, with much more people taking holidays than usually. This may amplify the current backlog as well. In the following weeks, the request flow will decrease a few. We need more people to help in treating requests, that's sure, but this is not the only thing to considerate.

And to answer pnightingale, as Xavier is my tutor, I know a few details making his own situation really complicated. Try to manage a website when your real life is changing.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "Euromunt"
There is no place on Numista for your synical references. Or say the names or shut your mouth, as you seem to be too coward to write names, keep your mouth shut about these kind of things.

​ Yeah, that's exactly what I was referring to. If you can't see the problem I really don't think I can explain it to you any clearer. You are a disgrace.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Wow, one does not see that every day. So lets coclude this topic:

Firsty, just everyone knows that some members of the Numista team + referees are, putting it frankly doing exactly nothing.

Then, one of the team members (obviously one of those that do something) argues, that we stop enlarging the catalog because they are overflowed with work.

Some respected collectors see the problems and try to solve the problems or at least point the team in the right direction.

And they are being directed to shut their mouth because they are trying to help solve the problems the team is arguing with...

Ignorance is a bliss. And Numista will be soon dead, if the Team does not change this entire thing.

PS: Already done a table in excel for every state I collect, because I simply can not trust this site will go on tomorrow.
Catalogue administrator
Also, Xavier might not want this site to be professional. But later or (rather) sooner he will have to decide if he wants to have site with life and people, or a dead catalog.
Catalogue administrator
I don't know if you have read my message Jarcek, as I have written above, I agree with all things that he writes that can make Numista a better website. I am only done with his cynical references to some Numista members and with him humiliating certain team members and referees over and over for their mistakes in the past. Without a leader, mistakes happen.

I also don't argue that we stop enlarging the catalog, I proposed a temporary closure of the catalog.

Keep it on the facts please.
Read and understood. But annoying and ignoring those, who are at their own expense trying to help, does not help the site at all. Communication is the key, and I (and everybody else) knows that Xavier is the key to it. We appreciate your work, because the few people who are doing something are everything we have now.

What we are trying to say is that this is not a solution, it is more like kicking the shit under your bed, you do not see it now, but you will smell it again pretty soon.

PS: Temporary closure is stopping its enlargement. And as the things are led here, it might never open again.
Catalogue administrator
Munt, you seem confused and upset.

You mean team members like this? He signed up for as many positions as possible and then neglected them because his agenda was to create a respectable image to further his coin stealing ambitions. Go check his feedback and the number of members he scammed before crying about him being "humiliated".

I know, you know and everyone else knows, that a LOT of potentially great contributors to the catalog are either forced out or prevented from participating in the first place for a single reason - your offensive attitude. Referees have quit, hard working volunteers have decided to make no further submissions..... because and only because of you and your inability to just get along and disagree without becoming abusive. Go ahead deny it, you won't fool anyone. You were even forced to step down recently for exactly this reason.

Putting the blame on a largely disengaged membership for a backlog which your own conduct has directly contributed towards isn't helpful. You seem to be under some illusion that you are far too important to be criticized? If team members are wasting their time pursuing their own pet projects instead of addressing the backlog shouldn't it be recognized as an issue along with all the others instead of being met with demands to "shut your mouth".

Read my original contribution which was intended to be constructive and helpful and ask yourself did it really warrant the abuse you responded with? "Shut your mouth" "Coward" and your masterpiece of self absorbed arrogance, telling me there is no place on Numista... really, because you say so?

Until you become part of the solution and learn to act like a reasonable adult, closing down the catalog won't help one iota.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
No Phil, simply no.

In my message I wrote the following: "You know verry well about which members I am talking and also about which members I am not talking." Eitan is clearly one of the members about who I was not talking and everyone who read my message knows that, including you.

Why are you talking in name of all Numista members again? I think there is only one member who is making problems about my presence here and that is you Mr Nightingale.

My conduct has never influenced the backlog, unlike you I have only been trying to do what I can and helped Numista Members with questions and complaints. Furthermore I try to support referees and team members who do their best to keep the website running.

As written in the message above, you are the only person who continues to humiliate the referees and team members that work very hard for their mistakes in the past. If these members leave, Numista is dead Mr Nightingale. But the only thing you do is criticizing the people who work very hard, instead of actively helping and supporting where possible (once expressing your thoughts isn't actively helping btw).

Furthermore I wrote that I agree with what you write, however I am done with your cynical references and you humiliating members. I have told you so in the past but apparently the message wasn't clear.

Same for you, keep it on the facts.
If you really want to keep on the facts, please wait for Xavier's final decision and stop this another drama, please. We all know things are going bad. We all know we lost people whose leaving or unability to come has complicated our global work. And so we don't have to fight against each other but to propose solutions. Temporarily closing the catalog is radical, but maybe too much because of the bad timing of the proposal and because of the risks of such a closure. We need to find a solution, we all agree about that. Maybe recruiting new referees, new catalogue admins, that's OK for me and for the majority. But we need Xavier to come back and he will come back soon. He had holidays, he was working on new features, and he had to conceal all of this with his own move. So just keep calm and wait for the boss. (OK this looks like a meme, but that makes more sense for me than a new dispute)

He told me to call him back for new data I needed if nothing was done for today. I've already called for him. I think he'll react asap.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
It starting to be funny. There is no way how anybody could agree with pnightingale and at the same time try to put blame on him for not helping and dehonesting him. That simply can not correspond with any of his ideas and thoughs of better management and better approach to collectors and contributors.

PS: It's cynical by the way, but let's not be a grammar nazi.

Those who can and those who want should focus on solutions, but without openess, little kindness and understanding, this is not going to work.
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​PS: It's cynical by the way, but let's not be a grammar nazi.



​Changed, thanks!

So let's get back to the important part. The figures are now public and everyone now knows exactly how bad the situation is. Hopefully Xavier will be back soon so we can work further with new and extra referees and team members (I have proposed the team to make 2 very good members, referees or team members but noone is reading the Numista Team part of this forum so it has never happened).
Quote: "chomp-master"he was working on new features,

​New features are nice but there are still bugs in the requests system, I hope he is going to do something about these. There are many ghost pages and ghost requests on Numista that no referee or team member can edit or validate, only Xavier can delete them. Noone has ever had a serious look at this problem.

Some people are waiting for their request to get validated while the request isn't visible for referees and team members.
And I agree to say we would have to check it, that's sure. As I already told you, we're still on Christmas and New Year holidays period. This have an unnegligeable contribution to the backlog.

And don't forget that numbers do not figure everything.

For example, take a look for Darkcid and tetricus79. Darkcid is in charge of both Rome (ancient) and tetricus79 only of Rome (ancient). I would notice by the way you didn't count imreh, who is also in charge of 5 more countries as well, in the final count of Rome.

I don't know much more about imreh and tetricus79 but I already had a talk with Darkcid. He's quite well active but he always have much more requests to check, he's doing his best making scrupulous verifications (all we need from a referee as well, right?). He recently checked some on my Rome requests, including an ID I made nearly alone in the French forum for an antoninianus I bought a few days before, and linked amelioration requests. In his situation, the amount of backlog requests are NOT significative from his ability to manage his countries, this says he need more help only. In some coins there are possibilities of team work, particularly with enough references. As well as for Gaul which has no referee, I think I can help him in some parts of the Roman coinage.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I had a look at the country list, there seem to be quite a few where there is no referee for the country at all. I assume that these aren't going to be verified until we get a referee for the country.
The list would have been much more big for Gaul if the French forum did not mobilize himself to ask the admins to validate such files. Just hope their efforts would be redirected elsewhere thanks to a possible nomination.

Notice the peak at 27 for Austrian Netherlands as top backlog country without any referee.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Anyway, if needed I can try to help in some nations if you think I would be helpful. I already applied for Gaul but some other nations may require more help. I've a few notions in Roman coinage thanks to a few RIC links I found. However some RIC numbers may be little old as some ones are told to have changes over time. Thanks to Frenchlover I've a numeric copy of a Hartill book useful for China - Empire. And even this is more difficult for me as mainly using numeric sources, I think I can help in German states, including that I may keep some continuity with my own Lorraine work by this way (as Lorraine initially a German duchy before its independance)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I can always help in the refereeing.
So please let me know:​
  1. Which country/-ies that doesn't have any referee at all
  2. Which countries that has the longest waiting time

And I'll let you know which ones I find myself best suited. With agreement from already existing referees I would gladly step in as an helping hand if there are a lot of request and the current referee feels overwhelmed by the requests.
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Quote: "Euromunt"​​Then I have also made a list of number of pending requests per country which you can view here.

​1st question answered here I guess ;)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
So, if there's no referees for Armenia, East Caribbean, Haiti, Kazakhstan, Kiribati, Kyrgyzstan, Solomon Islands, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Vanutau, then give them to me!
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Quote: "ngdawa"​I can always help in the refereeing.
​So please let me know:​

  1. Which countries that has the longest waiting time​​
​Longest waiting time is a new variable, top 15 of countries without a referee in terms of oldest request*:

Malay Peninusla
Madagascar
Indonesia
Nepal
China-Republic
England
Curaçao
Malaysia
United Arab Emirates
Judea
Poland
Kuwait
Yemenite States
Afghanistan
Byzantium Empire

Note that there are no statistics available for the average waiting time per country for a request to be verified. Furthermore there are also no statistics on average age of a pending request per country, so I don't know the countries of which the pending requests are on average the oldest.
Quote: "Euromunt"
Quote: "ngdawa"​I can always help in the refereeing.
​​So please let me know:​
​​

  1. Which countries that has the longest waiting time​​

​​Longest waiting time is a new variable, top 15 of countries without a referee in terms of oldest request*:

​Malay Peninusla
​Madagascar
​Indonesia
​Nepal
​China-Republic
​England
​Curaçao
​Malaysia
​United Arab Emirates
​Judea
​Poland
​Kuwait
​Yemenite States
​Afghanistan
​Byzantium Empire

​Note that there are no statistics available for the average waiting time per country for a request to be verified. Furthermore there are also no statistics on average age of a pending request per country, so I don't know the countries of which the pending requests are on average the oldest.
​I could do Malay peninsula but I know only about the British colonial issues of this area, similar to that I struggle with England's hammered issues. I'm willing to take these on additionally on the proviso that I am not responsible completely for them. I will as and when I can put research into some of the ones I'm not familiar with.
Any Polish guy for Poland? :P
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I could help only for Czechoslovakia and Czech Republic, but that works just fine. :)
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Euromunt"
Quote: "ngdawa"​I can always help in the refereeing.
​​So please let me know:​
​​

  1. Which countries that has the longest waiting time​​

​​Longest waiting time is a new variable, top 15 of countries without a referee in terms of oldest request*:

​Malay Peninusla
​Madagascar
​Indonesia
​Nepal
​China-Republic
​England
​Curaçao
​Malaysia
​United Arab Emirates
​Judea
​Poland
​Kuwait
​Yemenite States
​Afghanistan
​Byzantium Empire

​Note that there are no statistics available for the average waiting time per country for a request to be verified. Furthermore there are also no statistics on average age of a pending request per country, so I don't know the countries of which the pending requests are on average the oldest.
​Of these I could take Curaçao and Indonesia, including the ones in my last post.
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
I can do Haiti and Myanmar
Quote: "Euromunt"​​For your information, requests made by Numista Team Members for a country with a referee also first need to be validated by that referee. This is a fairly new thing and one of the worst decisions in the history of Numista.



​Hi all,

I agree with all the suggestions asking for more dedicated referees. There should be no country without !
Large and difficult catalogues should be handled by 2 refs (ex. German States, China).
It takes time to verify seriously coins of the 16th century ! and sometimes is useful to discuss with another fellow collector about the catalogue.

Sorry not to agree Euromunt, but I think the decision you mention was necessary. If you want a dedicated referee, then he/she will always sort of consider the catalogue as "his/hers" 8) and will not like changes to be done without his/her opinion, or without being informed - as was before.

Xavier should make a call for referees and, based on the stats info he has on the activity of the candidates, decide.

Regards,

André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Quote: "Euromunt"​​For your information, requests made by Numista Team Members for a country with a referee also first need to be validated by that referee. This is a fairly new thing and one of the worst decisions in the history of Numista.
​I disagree with you on this Euromunt. This is a very good decision made by Numista. There have been many cases where the moderator moved coins from one country to another, changed titles on coin sheets without any notification. Most of these were in error and due to lack of in depth knowledge.

I do appreciate your efforts to clear the logjam of change requests.
In the past multiple occasions have happened in which copyrighted material was discovered, I submitted a change request to get the images offline. The referee rejected the request and started a discussion about it (via PM and the forum). In the meantime the author of the work found out that the work had been used on Numista. Two of these occasions have had serious consequences for Numista. That's one of the reasons why I want my full rights back. Furthermore why would we want to have even more pending requests, while these Team Members already know very well how to work on Numista.
Quote: "Euromunt"​In the past multiple occasions have happened in which copyrighted material was discovered, I submitted a change request to get the images offline. The referee rejected the request and started a discussion about it (via PM and the forum). In the meantime the author of the work found out that the work had been used on Numista. Two of these occasions have had serious consequences for Numista. That's one of the reasons why I want my full rights back. Furthermore why would we want to have even more pending requests, while these Team Members already know very well how to work on Numista.
​Thing is the requests could have been instantly approved if you had of used the comments function to explain your intentions clearly. Furthermore I think you'll find hay claiming your "rights" j this instance is part of the reason people jump n you from time to time. If you were entitled to them you would have them, you're quick to dismiss ideas on the grounds Xavier has said no but when this directly affects you you're not so happy about it. You need to find a more level head mate then you can truly get along with all sorts of people.
Quote: "Mark240590"​​Thing is the requests could have been instantly approved if you had of used the comments function to explain your intentions clearly.
​Of course I had done so. I am not the slightest impressed by your further statemens. If I like something, I will say so, If I don't like something I will say it as well. Xavier's rank doesn't influence that in any way.

Some members seem to struggle to stay on topic, once more I ask you to comment on the figures and proposed solutions.
Quote: "Euromunt"
​Some members seem to struggle to stay on topic, once more I ask you to comment on the figures and proposed solutions.


​You are the one who brought it up.... We were merely responding to your remark.
Quote: "Euromunt"
Quote: "Mark240590"​​Thing is the requests could have been instantly approved if you had of used the comments function to explain your intentions clearly.
​​Of course I had done so. I am not the slightest impressed by your further statemens. If I like something, I will say so, If I don't like something I will say it as well. Xavier's rank doesn't influence that in any way.

​Some members seem to struggle to stay on topic, once more I ask you to comment on the figures and proposed solutions.


You're tying yourself in knots. So one instance you defend decisions of our leader and the next you're publicly announcing your displeasure at what he's done. You don't have to like everything that's done, but when you're in a position of "Authority" you need to knuckle under and get on with it and stay on your side not by sitting on the fence. You can't be people's boss and their mate at the same time it just doesn't work that's what I'm pointing out that and by what I've read of some statements both here and before you're very self-righteous and believe you're above common members. You're not though.

A sensible admin would've probably locked or had this thread locked a while back instead of coming back to have a bit fight allowing it to escalate. This isn't the first time you've been at the centre of an episode like this..
Quote: "Mark240590"​You're tying yourself in knots. So one instance you defend decisions of our leader and the next you're publicly announcing your displeasure at what he's done. You don't have to like everything that's done, but when you're in a position of "Authority" you need to knuckle under and get on with it and stay on your side not by sitting on the fence. You can't be people's boss and their mate at the same time it just doesn't work that's what I'm pointing out that and by what I've read of some statements both here and before you're very self-righteous and believe you're above common members. You're not though.

​A sensible admin would've probably locked or had this thread locked a while back instead of coming back to have a bit fight allowing it to escalate. This isn't the first time you've been at the centre of an episode like this..

There are at least 3 other team members who also want to get their full rights back, they only don't say it in the forum. Anyway I still have no idea what your problem is, if there is anything else you have to say, you can do so via PM. Of course I am also very interested in examples of "you're above common members". Furthermore I am not an admin and can't lock this topic.

Now back to the figures, the backlog has grown with another 100+ requests since yesterday.
Quote: "Euromunt"​Now back to the figures, the backlog has grown with another 100+ requests since yesterday.
​Well, I have asked Xavier to let me take Armenia, East Caribbean, Haiti, Kazakhstan, Kiribati, Kyrgyzstan, Solomon Islands, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Vanutau, Curaçao and Indonesia, but still no answer. Maybe the crisis isn't that bad after all, or is it that he simply doesn't know it?
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Hello,

No i guess the crisis is not that bad !
It would indeed be better not to use harsh words like "nazi" or others when discussing. It is a bit beyond our thoughts ... i hope.

One important point is to think in terms of flow rather than numbers for the backlog. There will always be pending requests, but if the flow is constant, it is ok. I take for ex Apuking I bother often with requests . He is always late and I can have 5 requests adding to the backlog for a month but they are eventually solved and I add another 5...

You need to look at those that are stuck for more than a month.

Fo the rest, Numista functions mainly like an NGO, a non profit association. It has the same flaws. That with none of the mechanisms you have in a Cie, you need to adress the problems another way. And Xavier does not do enough in that direction: what keeps good people motivated to do such work for "les beaux yeux de la princesse" ?.

Regards,
Andre

Ps. I candidate for Austrian Netherlands !!! After discovering the 27 pending requests ! A.
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Seems logical to see the Habsburg Austria referee taking the Habsburg overseas territories like this one ;)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Firstly: I am sorry, if some got personally offended by the word "nazi". I surely did not meant it that way.

Secondly: As there is already a forum for suggesting changes to the catalog, I think there should be another one (or just a section) where referees could ask for help with difficult requests also. As I see here, there are lot of people who wants to help.
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"grammar nazi.
This is what he meant: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Grammar+Nazi
The English expression for this is probably not the best, but it is, as weird as it sounds, the correct one.
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Quote: "Jarcek"​Firstly: I am sorry, if some got personally offended by the word "nazi". I surely did not meant it that way.

​Secondly: As there is already a forum for suggesting changes to the catalog, I think there should be another one (or just a section) where referees could ask for help with difficult requests also. As I see here, there are lot of people who wants to help.


​I understand why you said "grammar nazi", a modern internet term, was not intended to offend. It's more like a strange joke. However this wrong interpretation is not surprising as it's more a wrong use you made here. To tell people not familiar with it (there are Still people who never saw "btw" aka. "by the way"), "grammar nazi" is usually a joke VS excessive defenders of a strict spelling.

You're right there is a Referee section that only team members and referees can see and join. This one is really interesting as the only bilingual section of Numista forum. By this way French-speaking referees may help English-speaking ones and vice versa. Of course this section is useful for difficult issues. However this section has also a limited use as most issues can be simply solved asking our tutor who is always a team member.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "Jarcek"​Secondly: As there is already a forum for suggesting changes to the catalog, I think there should be another one (or just a section) where referees could ask for help with difficult requests also. As I see here, there are lot of people who wants to help.
​Such thing indeed already exists for team members and referees but unfortunately nobody seems to care about it. Topics with very good suggestions get 0 replies..
In that case, I would consider making such forum/or parts of of open to the general public.
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​In that case, I would consider making such forum/or parts of of open to the general public.
​No.

If there is a section made for referees and higher only, that's not to make its content public. If so, the section becomes useless.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
To come back to those people wanting to help for the catalog, don't forget the French side, some people may help too as I suggested them here.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Every day the backlog grows with 110 requests. We are currently at 1710 pending requests.
Maybe I am to blame for big numbers, but I only submit some minor corrections, which are approved almost instantly in matter of 5 minutes, whenever referee for respective country arrives. But I am avoiding countries in your list, where referees are either inactive or have a really big load ahead of them.
Catalogue administrator
I would be no help as it is only UK coinage I would be able to handle, including colonial British coinage. I would assume there are referee's for this.

I do not pretend to be highly experienced, but I do have a very fine eye for detail and I can research almost anything to dig up the facts, I have learnt a huge amount since I started collecting, but I would not want to take on a position where skill is relied upon.

Lastly, I think a referee should be chosen rather than them asking to be a referee. people who ask for a raised position are normally the wrong type to have on board, with the exception of a minority who are on the ball.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
Quote: "Fluke"​​Lastly, I think a referee should be chosen rather than them asking to be a referee. people who ask for a raised position are normally the wrong type to have on board, with the exception of a minority who are on the ball.
​I agree on this one (even though I'm pretty eager myself to take on new challenges and become a referee for countries with a larger coinage than those I already have. This is mainly because I love this site, and I love to learn and research to get new knowledge). The question is though, how will these people be chosen? Do we need to have some kind of "competition" for each of the 401 countries and territories in the list? (and yes, that's how many it is right now). It would take years and years until every spot is filled.

So I guess it's better to give everyone who wants to be a referee a fair chance. Then, if they're not fit for the position or abuse their position in any way, they should, of course, be removed.
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE

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