German states split

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I would like to split German states coins into 3 historical eras:

- Holy Roman Empire (until 1806)
- Napoleonic (1806-1815)
- Confederation (1815-1871), with German Empire 2, 3, 5, 10 & 20 Mark coins included.

Furthermore, coins of Eastern Prussia should move from Poland to Napoleonic Germany. These were minted in Berlin and in my opinion do not belong with Poland. Other 19th century occupied Polish territories (Duchy of Posen, Duchy of Warsaw, Congress Poland) can stay with Poland.

Krause is American (though German descent) and does not seem to be too much into non-American history, so some of the choices in their catalogue never made sense to me.
I don't agree. The idea of "German states" is a myth perpetuated by Krause but most of the numismatic world uses it by now and Numista is in no position to change it.
Even local minting rights remaining for high denominations, as made in Spain (Spanish states reduced and late denominations reintegrated in Spain) we may reintegrate latest German states in Germany (1871-1948) or create a German states and cities (1871-1948) also including notgelds. However seems more logical to keep HRE German states apart from Napoleonic and further coinage as Napoleon destroyed HRE.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
The reason I came up with this is that non-German Holy Roman Empire coins end up in the weirdest places. There was a coin from Hainaut (part of present-day Wallonia, Belgium) listed under Dutch Republic. And Lorraine/Lotharingen is its own country where other HRE states are not.

Only trouble is Austria, where coins from before 1806 have a legend referring to the HRE and later dates are not. I would rather keep those with Austria as that developed into a separate nation.

I also believe that Numista can take the challenge with Krause and is in a position to respect local catalogues and experts to come up with sensible solutions there where Krause seems to miss historical context.
When I read the French Wikipedia, I see that the Duchy of Lorraine gained its independance from the Emperor himself. That explains its separate listing as a country. However, as the referee of that duchy, I'm still questionning about what to do about coins from pre-independance coinage and about Metz coinage (as Metz apart from the Duchy). I think I'll ask for having a role in German states as well to keep control of Metz and pre-independance coinage in case of transfer from Lorraine to German states. However as you said, if Austria is similar for pre-1806, there would have a logical issue between Lorraine and Austria - Habsburg.

PS: in German we say LOTHRINGEN
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "dptashny"​I don't agree. The idea of "German states" is a myth perpetuated by Krause but most of the numismatic world uses it by now and Numista is in no position to change it.
​I am curious to hear more...
The country of "German states" is a catch-all phrase for the many small states, principalities, duchies, and kingdoms that existed in the area now called Germany between c. 1000 and 1919, as well as small German-speaking territories that existed during that period.

Beginning in 1815 "German states" did in fact become a defined territories, but never beforehand:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historic_states_of_Germany
All Austrian States coins are in fact Holy Roman Empire coins from states currently in Austria, but in those days seen as German lands. I am in favour of merging those with HRE-era coins of German States.

Funny fact is that Voltaire once said that the HRE was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.
Im against moving all the states into one.
that would be the same as creating the country European Union with currency the Euro.

these states were no matter how small still independent Kingdoms, Bishoprics, ...
often even being at war with eachother.
All professional numismatists, magazine and national book authors, historians and auction houses still list them seperatly by each modern day country.
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For Mark coins after 1871 I had already proposed for these to be seperated but it had not lead to any success yet.
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We really need to change things about this ragbag section. We should no more mix HRE with the following countries.

I still think we should make this way:
  • German states - Holy Roman Empire including pre-1806 Austrian coinage, as Austria part of the Empire till its dissolution by Napoleon
  • German states (1806-1871) to reflect its political changes between the Empires
  • German states and cities (1871-1948) for the last Empire (not counting Nazi Germany as really an Empire) made of 2 mark and further coins of the Empire and of notgelds

PS: I had the idea to transfer to German states pre-1542 Lorraine coinage as the year of the Treaty of Nurnberg making Lorraine independant from the HRE, and Metz coinage as not part of the Duchy. But to keep some continuity I would ask for being co-referee with apuking...
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
All these proposals are very nice (especially the last one, although I don't like the names and the idea of adding MORE years to country names), but why change?

Krause perpetuates a fantasy and as long as they do Numista is in no position to change it. I understand the idea of "historical accuracy" but that doesn't work if nobody knows what you're talking about. Maybe fancy German auction houses make the split but most of the world uses "German states". If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Anyway, if you want to split go with this:
  • German States (Holy Roman Empire)
  • German States (Confederation)
  • German States (Empire)

That way, the phrase "German states" is preserved, but each "country" gets a separate identity. In addition, there's no need for years in country names, so everything is good.

Finally, why don't we try to figure out a final road-map for what constitutes a country, instead of worrying about individual cases (although I admit that German states is a special case)?
Keeping German states inside the country name is like keeping an anchor about their original name, to make it easier to recognize. Periods are mandatory for me in this hard situation. How would you name those other sections instead?

EDIT: OK. Quite nice ones except notgelds are also made under Weimar. We would need to jkeep the dates to make the link with actual Germany (1871-1948).
Let's translate.
  • Allemagne - États - Saint Empire Romain Germanique
  • Allemagne - États - Confédération
  • Allemagne - États - Second Empire (considering your rename, in my own opinion we should keep the dates again)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Yeh you're right, maybe we should keep the dates for the last one. Not that I like dates but they are already there, so....

And Notgeld is not German states coinage, it is listed under the main Germany - 1871-1945 listing.
I know but I always wanted to exit notgelds from Germany (1871-1948), merging them in German states (1871-1948) should be better this way, like we did for French notgelds. That would explain why I proposed German states and cities instead of German states
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Looks like we're getting somewhere :-)
I don't agree with putting notgeld under German States. Really they should stay under the main German Reich (my new name for that country because I hate using the years) listing but if not a separate country should be created for them.

But they are not German States coins, and putting notgeld under German States sounds like a mistake only Krause would make! ;)

If you put them under German States - Empire, this "German states country" would become a mess once again, with all those cities and states (there are a LOT of notgeld issuers).
Technically it seems for me more logical to add them. Notgeld minting started during the Empire and ended under Weimar regime. If we can name someone able to classify these notgelds a better way than now, maybe by state/territory (need to include Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen or smaller territories), notgelds won't be problematic.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Its logical, but it would damage the whole "German states" fantasy.
Hello,

Have a look at that.
Some interesting thoughts there: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic38865.html
Most lead nowhere for probably 2 main reasons: there is some practical ground to keep following KM, and 2, change is a lot of work !

I personally gave up the idea of Holy empire as a whole, too complicated.

Cheers, André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
I agree with you Ecapoe (finally we can agree over not splitting up a country!).
:O "Give up" does not mean I agree :O
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Explaining "give up" to a US man is like selling ice to an inuit... :O
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "Ecapoe":O "Give up" does not mean I agree :O
​I don't want to do it precisely because it's difficult to pull off efficiently. I would love to split it if it was more realistic.
Guys, this is a very interesting discussion. I know all of you have higher expertise that I do, but I would like to throw in my two cents. The way I see it, this kind of nebulous borders and time frames happened everywhere. For instance we have the Spanish Empire coinage, then we have the Central American Republic and now we have separate countries. We also have Russia (empire), Soviet Union ( which is not only Russia) and now Russia, Same thing with China and other places. Granted the "German States" issue is a complex one, but I believe there is a value in keeping it accurate. Learning the history of the world from coinage origin is what attracted me to numismatics to begin with, you see changes in dates and borders and it makes me curious to go read more about it. That is what makes numismatics really interesting and worth doing. I know Krause is an "authority" in the numismatics community, but I also believe Numista has a wealth of expertise, and not just one person, but plenty of people from around the world, and to make it better, it is refereed. This alone is basis to challenge something you all know is wrong, and not doing anything about it will deprive future generations from learning the history and only learn the Krause way. I know it will be challenging, but if difficulty is all the reason you have to stop you...
Trade only within the US.
Quote: "jokinen"​The reason I came up with this is that non-German Holy Roman Empire coins end up in the weirdest places. There was a coin from Hainaut (part of present-day Wallonia, Belgium) listed under Dutch Republic. And Lorraine/Lotharingen is its own country where other HRE states are not.

​Only trouble is Austria, where coins from before 1806 have a legend referring to the HRE and later dates are not. I would rather keep those with Austria as that developed into a separate nation.

​I also believe that Numista can take the challenge with Krause and is in a position to respect local catalogues and experts to come up with sensible solutions there where Krause seems to miss historical context.
​without looking it up, Hainaut listed under Dutch Republic makes sense. Belgium was part of the Dutch Republic before Belgium separated from the Dutch Republic.
Untrue. Belgium was part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands from 1815 to 1830 when it broke away.

The Hainaut coin is from the 14th century, but the Dutch Republic was established only in 1589. Therefore it was an anachronism. In the 14th century all Netherlands were part of the Holy Roman Empire.
Quote: "jokinen"​Untrue. Belgium was part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands from 1815 to 1830 when it broke away.

​The Hainaut coin is from the 14th century, but the Dutch Republic was established only in 1589. Therefore it was an anachronism. In the 14th century all Netherlands were part of the Holy Roman Empire.
​To confirm, Wikipedia says the County of Hainaut was part of the HRE, as ruled by local houses till 1345 when the rulers became Bavarian (and the actual Hainaut coin on German states was a Wilhelm III von Bayern coinage.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I have just deleted a very long essay on my historic, practical and numismatic opinion on the issue,
and replaced it with my consultant answer:

If there is no clear process of how to make decisions: there will be no decision.
Total rework of country list is the answer, until that, I believe we will manage, if we managed until now.
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​Total rework of country list is the answer, until that, I believe we will manage, if we managed until now.
​Are you suggesting a Numista renewal process, in which a competent body diagnoses Numista's organic development, suggests a new structure, then decides finally on principles instead of individual cases and creates a framework for development further?
Then if this decision is made and carefully tested, sticks to it and executes a plan to make Numista a consciously growing expert numismatic site with competent, responsible and accountabe leadership and management team?

I certainly can vote for that, Jarek!
I believe any German or Italian state that was an actual kingdom at one time should be listed as a separate country.
As if Bohemia was ever German state... But I agree that they should be listed separately.
Catalogue administrator
Being in a race to just getting more countries for the sake of it is ignorant and stupid, a split of the German States and orhers will just add complete mess to Bumista catalogue (Have fun adding more than 1000 new countries). For simplicity and clarity in the Numista catalogue I think we should not make any rushed changes or seperations of countries.
Sure Im not thinking that currently is how it will stay forever and there are possible structural improvements for the German States.

One possible change could be to have a seperate entity listing for Medieval coins minted before 1450 (Numista is still very poor for medieval coins) and then again for coins minted after the end of the Holy roman Empire.
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Quote: "SRV5490"​I believe any German or Italian state that was an actual kingdom at one time should be listed as a separate country.
​How about Indian states? Should we list all the sultanates and independent kingdoms separately?

The solution we have right now is not perfect, but it is the best right now. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Kenny

- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.

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Comming soon the 8500 countries club:O
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Quote: "apuking"​Comming soon the 8500 countries club:O
​I emphasize with you. ;) This discussion starts to become absurd.
How about cutting US into 50 states? - They have the 50 states quarters!
Quote: "imreh"
Quote: "apuking"​Comming soon the 8500 countries club:O
​​I emphasize with you. ;) This discussion starts to become absurd.
​How about cutting US into 50 states? - They have the 50 states quarters!
​Actually, it wouldn't be all that farfetched as the United States of America is a Federation (Federal Republic), each state does have sovereignty ... :°:8D
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Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
I hope that one day, I will open German states and will see country list of them. That would be quite enough.
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "apuking"​Being in a race to just getting more countries for the sake of it is ignorant and stupid, a split of the German States and orhers will just add complete mess to Bumista catalogue (Have fun adding more than 1000 new countries).
​I'm an advocate for separating former kingdoms from German and Italian states because it makes sense to me, not because it creates more countries. There are a lot of countries/territories on Numista's country list that I do not recognize in my collection. Apuking, why would you shout out that anything is ignorant and stupid as far as one's collecting is concerned. Bumista catalogue, really?
I agree that German states, Italian states and similar listings (like France Feudal or Austrian states) are more a kind of commodity listing, made to avoid a more messy country listing. The only split we need would be a historical context split as you can see my old posts. And some ones may be more consensual than others.

There would remain some "mind issues" as my vision of some coin listings do not fit with the commonly accepted ones, but these are no more important. We still need a split in 2/3, that would be enough.
Quote: "SRV5490"
Quote: "apuking"​Being in a race to just getting more countries for the sake of it is ignorant and stupid, a split of the German States and orhers will just add complete mess to Bumista catalogue (Have fun adding more than 1000 new countries).
​​
Bumista catalogue, really?
B & N are close characters, so no reason to point this small typo issue, like "orhers" instead of "others".
Quote: "Jarcek"​As if Bohemia was ever German state...
As the Kingdom of Bohemia reknown as the only kingdom part of HRE... :°
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "Jarcek"​I hope that one day, I will open German states and will see country list of them. That would be quite enough.
​Me too
ROMAE AETERNAE
That should have said Numista of course, typo on my phone.
I agree I would love to be able to click on German State and then to get a listing of all states with flags simmilar to the current countries listing.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
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Quote: "apuking"​That should have said Numista of course, typo on my phone.
​I agree I would love to be able to click on German State and then to get a listing of all states with flags simmilar to the current countries listing.
​And this would (would it?) be easy to establish. You already have the code for country list, just copy it into itself once again. I am a historian, not an IT, correct me if you wish.
Catalogue administrator
Only Xavier could do such changes but they need more planning before implementation.
about IT I don't know anything about programming or such things.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
How exciting! You know ehat I like about Krause? They have a table of contents. Every little and big country has its own entry. I would love the idea of clicking on german states or indian states and finding a list of all the states. Thats more user friendly for novice visitors. I also like that I would be closer to the 400 country club than I am at present. As for splitting up the US into 50 listings because of the 50 state quarters...hogwash. Only the US Mint has legal power to issue coins in the name of the USA. Those coins are legal tender and were released in all 50 states and the various territories. On the otherhand...Azores and Maderia have unique obverse and reverse descriptions but still have to be found within Portugal. I think you must consider the national side of the 50 state quarters is the USA. The commemorative side is a states name. They are all USA coins. I agree with every country having its own listing. Maybe the Numista country page could just be the 26 letters of the alphabet and when you click on A you then see all of the A countries, and so forth...the countries page could then be a table of contents. Then those of us who cringe when we see Sealand accorded greater status than Bavaria or Travencore could be assuaged :).
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Quote: "Oklahoman"​As for splitting up the US into 50 listings because of the 50 state quarters...hogwash. Only the US Mint has legal power to issue coins in the name of the USA. Those coins are legal tender and were released in all 50 states and the various territories. On the otherhand...Azores and Maderia have unique obverse and reverse descriptions but still have to be found within Portugal. I think you must consider the national side of the 50 state quarters is the USA. The commemorative side is a states name. They are all USA coins.

​Well... Seems you've been trapped by an ironical post. :°
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.

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