Guidance needed on coins missing in swap

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Is there a standard protocol when both parties send coins and only 1 party receives their coins? I am involved in a trade and the value was around $70 for each. I live in the US and my trading partner is in France. We both mailed our coins and I received his be he did not receive mine. I did not send by registered mail - and my profile states that I will not do so because the cost for international reregistered mail is an additional $14 on top of postage of around $14. My French swap partner sent by registered mail on his own accord, not by my request. The issue of registered mail was not discussed in our trade. In other trades when the issue has come up, I have either sent my coins first or we both send regular mail but again, this never came up. I proposed to either send half of his coins back or resend half of the coins he wishes to acquire. My French partner rejected that and wants full restitution. This is the first time that I have come across this issue in 52 swaps although I guess that it was inevitable. I would like to solicit other opinions on what is fair so I would appreciates thoughts.

Thanks

Paul
How long has it been since the swap? Also, I would check with the post office from where you sent the coins, as in my first international swap, I mailed the coins to Israel, but the clerk typed in Ireland on the postal form, so it took about a month longer than it should have for the person to receive the coins.
If patience doesn't solve the problem, I think you should return all the coins to your swap partner.
But that is just one person's advice. I am eager to see what others in this forum think.
It's a really tough call. I've always been of the view that it's the responsibility of each person to make sure that the coins arrive in the other person's mailbox. I've made good when it's happened to me as long as the other person isn't some scrub with zero feedback. Have I been taken advantage of? Maybe, who can say but at least my conscience is clear. At least now parcels with the US and Canada come with free tracking so "unlucky mailbox "stories should become quite rare.

On the other hand, I've had incoming parcels emptied of their contents by customs and the sender really quite upset and at once offered to send a second lot of coins. Well, that was really nobody's fault, he got my coins and he did his part even if I ended up empty handed. So thanked him for being a stand up guy and said let's forget all about it. If however he had tried to slide out of it, then I would have gotten medieval on him.

Treat each case on it's merits I reckon and only ship overseas to people with impeccable credentials.

The single most toxic experience I've had so far to date was with a Numista Team member. He has a very bad habit of letting the other person mail their coins and only mailing his after they have been received. So I wasn't too alarmed that they didn't show up at first. Later, he claimed to have sent his half of the deal, (although he got his chronology wrong and was still telling me he was buying the rest of the stuff from a local dealer weeks after he said he mailed it) but couldn't produce a tracking number or even a copy of the counter receipt from the Post Office it didn't arrive so I made the mistake of thinking "Team Member = honest" , and as he was young I let it slide and decided to eat the cost myself. You may imagine how pissed off I was to find the same kid offering the exact same (uncommon) items he claimed to have mailed to me for sale on a forum post several months later. I guess some smart ones are not quite as smart as they think they are. Despite numerous assurances that he is sorry and will make things right, after a loooong time I'm still empty handed and he has stopped replying to my messages. This isn't over by any means.

Good luck, I hope you can reach an amicable solution or even better, the coins eventually arrive.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
This is EXACTLY what just happened to me with another swapper. Unfortunately, because we are "spoiled rich Americans," we bear the burden for all losses without exception. I hope you fair better than I did. Here is a sanitized version of what I just did in this situation:

You are absolutely maddening. I did not ask for registered letter, but you chose to send to me that way. The cost of registered letter from USA to X is unreasonable, the purpose I asked if normal letter is acceptable. YOU said YES.

I am very sorry your notes have not arrived. Now in return, you are requesting three times the original value of the notes, and with registered letter. You can imagine why I am not happy about this.

With 100% positive ratings on over 50 swaps at Numista, why would I try to steal from you? Letters have been lost and suffered VERY long delays to and from the USA. Do you know why I still have 100% positive? Because other people I have swapped with in the past were reasonable people. We understood the risks involved and accepted those risks. We swapped with trustworthy people. You do not think I am trustworthy. Many swappers do not agree with you. Do you know why I have not accused you of lying about the notes? Because I see that you are a trustworthy swapper with 100% positive ratings. You should consider these kinds of facts when dealing with people.

I understand you are unhappy. Can you understand why I am unhappy? I will bear 100% of the cost for this loss, and you will bear 0%. You agreed to 50% of the risk.

I will send you more notes with registered letter. The notes you will receive are as follows:
X
These are duplicates of 3 of the original 4 notes sent. The fourth is not available, and has been lost in X or US post, as you know, but refuse to acknowledge. Again, the fellow in Israel and the fellow in France both have received their letters, the same day yours was posted on the same mailing receipt.

Again I will send you a photograph of the letter, the receipt, and this time a photograph of the notes in a futile attempt to prove to you they actually exist. If the letter does not arrive, it is not my problem. Your expectations are far too extreme. I am going so far above and beyond to please you, I expect no further threats of a negative rating.

Finally, YOU accepted the risk of a lost letter when asked. I did not accept YOUR risk. Registered letter number and photographs will follow, and I wish to have no further contact with you. Good day, sir.
I like your style Glen you can swap with me any time.

Greg too :P
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Quote: "pnightingale"​I like your style Glen you can swap with me any time.
​Same here! For the record, registering a letter serves only 1 purpose...to tell you for sure the item was lost. It doesn't protect you when it does go missing. I had a registered package go missing in Brazil...the postal service listed it as lost...all they said to me was yea well you sent coins tough for you we wont refund you anything.

What that means is I do not use registered mail I will only swap with places that I can trust the service and with people that know me well enough to know im not in it for a quick pay day.
The one time I had coins lost in the mail I replaced them with other coins that the receiving swapper was interested in. Unfortunately this ended up biting me in the arse, as the other swapper was still not happy.
I think I would still try to make a swap right if a shipment was lost again.
Referee for Pre-Euro Ireland
Quote: "pdekeyse"<snip>

​Thanks

​Paul


Quite off topic I know but Holy Coin Flips, that's a nice swap list Batman!

I hope this encounter hasn't soured you on the notion of swapping as you have a whole bunch of dates I need. Feel free to open a swap or drop me a line whenever you feel like resuming.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
In case both parties decide on sending by regular mail, both take a risk of losing their package.

You could consider this as a joint risk, which you could 'insure' by agreeing to 'go Dutch' on eventual damage: let the partner whose parcel got lost, resend a parcel with half of the value of the original deal.
If the second parcel arrives, both parties have an in-out balance of -1/2. The risk of two packages in a row getting lost are smaller than one getting lost.
If the second package does get lost as well, then you could repeat this with 1/4 of the original value if is still worth while. Otherwise, one of the parties unfortunately has to accept his loss.

The chances of packages getting lost differs significantly from one country to another. If one of the swap partners lives in a high risk country, you should think twice whether you want to accept this risk, either with or without 'insurance'.
Arno,

Please tell me what's a"high risk" country?
I did swap with all kind of high risk countries around the world before and guess what, the coins/letter/package did arrive at both sides.
Till today I did experience the most swap problems swapping with people in the USA and I don't think that I should blame the post officers for the lost. As a matter of fact I do have very positive experiences swapping with our USA friends and don't tend to see the USA as high risk country.

In other words, I still don't know what I should understand as a high risk country!
Cents are money too!
Quote: "Dutchgalego"​​Please tell me what's a"high risk" country?

​You're very right: it can happen anywhere. For fear of talking from prejudice, I already avoided explicitly naming countries in the first place.

The Numista community could collect and aggregate experiences, but I'm not sure if it is a wise thing to do in a public topic.
I think confirming the exchange, users must understand that they assume 100% responsibility for the delivery of letters to their partner. So I always recommend to send the coins via registered mail because: you can always trace the location of the letter; the risk of lost mail is reduced to a minimum; in case of loss of the postal service shall compensate the damage. Always less expensive to send coins by registered letter , than to send the coins a second time.
If the cost of a registered letter in Your country is great, you should try to make a profitable exchange, which includes a large number of coins, the cost of a registered letter paid off.
Quote: "Shmays"​I think confirming the exchange, users must understand that they assume 100% responsibility for the delivery of letters to their partner. So I always recommend to send the coins via registered mail because: you can always trace the location of the letter; the risk of lost mail is reduced to a minimum; in case of loss of the postal service shall compensate the damage. Always less expensive to send coins by registered letter , than to send the coins a second time.
​If the cost of a registered letter in Your country is great, you should try to make a profitable exchange, which includes a large number of coins, the cost of a registered letter paid off.
Absolutely agree with your point of view.

1 large mounts to swap
2 registered mail

It wont avoid you to be ripped off. However, once you get a track & trace code and check that the coins are coming your way, you can post your letter with a positive feeling.
Cents are money too!
Quote: "ArnoV"
Quote: "Dutchgalego"​​Please tell me what's a"high risk" country?

​​You're very right: it can happen anywhere. For fear of talking from prejudice, I already avoided explicitly naming countries in the first place.

​The Numista community could collect and aggregate experiences, but I'm not sure if it is a wise thing to do in a public topic.
​Ik begrijp het! ... oftewel I do understand.
Cents are money too!
Topic locked (Numista Robot, 23-Jan-2019, 23:54)

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