To merge v. a timeline: how small territories have a big place on Numista

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An ongoing discussion I've had for many years on the site is the merger of some small territories that have DIRECTLY either changed government or merely changed their name, despite retaining the same territory.

Unfortunately merging these countries has created some backlash. Members wish to have a long list of owned countries, but this means further separation of territories that had very little change.

The way I see this issue: are countries decided by territory or by ruler? For example: Alexandria under the Romans is listed under Roman provinces instead of Egypt (ruler, together), New Hebrides is separate from Vanuatu (ruler, separate), and Luxembourg, Livonia, and Philippines includes foreign rule and independent (territory, together).

So the solution is to not merge territories, but to create a timeline for all territories.

Numista already implements a system that is like a timeline: countries that are predecessors and successors to a country appear on the top of the country page, and some countries are already separating the different governments (ex. Czechoslovakia, Mexico). A timeline will keep coinage like Habsburg Austria separate from the Republic, but will appear as "Austria" on the country list.

Numista's country list should list all current countries only, and within these countries all governments should be listed separately within a timeline. Some examples:
  • "Russia" gives a timeline of: Duchy, Kingdom, Empire, Republic, Soviet Union (USSR), Federation
  • "Philippines" gives a timeline of: Spanish Philippines, US Commonwealth, Republic
  • "Poland" gives a timeline of: Duchy, Commonwealth, (3 partitions), 1st Republic, 2nd Republic, PRL, 3rd Republic
  • "Czech Republic" gives a timeline of: Bohemia, Bohemia and Moravia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic

If a country had territorial acquisitions, all territories under that government will be listed.

All historic and current governments can be listed in one "country list" but currently the country list is divided between both.

Is there any other solution between sorting the country list? Or do we keep listing non-existing and currently existing territories together? With name changes and changes in succeeding governments, there are plenty more countries that should be in the country list.

Here is a list of territories that have continuity:
  • Congo Free State + Belgian Congo + Ruanda-Urundi
  • Belize + British Honduras
  • Benin + Dahomey
  • Ceylon + Sri Lanka
  • Curacao + Netherlands Antilles
  • Djibouti + French Somaliland
  • Equatorial African states + French Equatorial Africa
  • German New Guinea + New Guinea + Papua New Guinea
  • Gold Coast + Ghana
  • New Hebrides + Vanuatu
  • Muwalkkite Kingdom + Yemen Arab Republic + Yemen
  • Yemenite states + Democratic Yemen = South Yemen
Kenny

- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.

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I believe every of these cases should be taken as separate issue.
Bohemia, Bohemia and Moravia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic are 4 different states.
One medieval - concerning much more teritorry - sometimes ruling over Austrian, Hungarian, German and Polish lands. (PS: I still want Silesia be part of Bohemia rather than German states!!!)

Bohemia and Moravia and Czech Republic do not include Slovakia, while Czechoslovakia does.

Poland including Commonwealth would collide with Lithuania, Livonia and others.
By this logic - we could end up with Central Europe coinage listings.

However, on the other hand, Phillipines are so compact and not very complex that even different rulers (Spain, USA, Independent) can be put together into one country.

These will be neverending disputes, but some of them can be solved pretty quickly.
Catalogue administrator
The proposal to list only current countries has a lot of problems. What to do about historic countries that are larger than any current countries, e.g., Yugoslavia, Ottoman Empire? It appears from Kenny's list that he does include dead countries, e.g., French Equatorial Africa, Netherlands Antilles--even though new countries of Curacao (separate from Curacao and Dependencies that became Netherlands Antilles) and Sint Maarten have yet to issue coinage and continue to use Netherlands Antilles coinage while BES Islands are listed as having new coinage (US dollar) but are officially part of the European portion of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and not countries in the sense of Aruba, Curacao and Sint Maarten, and Papua New Guinea is not directly continuous with German New Guinea and New Guinea, since only the northern half of Papua New Guinea composed German New Guinea, renamed New Guinea after Allied occupation in World War I, and the southern half was British New Guinea, renamed Papua in 1905--even though coins not issued for British New Guinea or Papua). Also argument can be made that Ghana is not continuous with Gold Coast, since Ghana was formed by a merger of Gold Coast and British Togoland (though British Togoland did not have coinage).

What about ancient countries? Would they need a separate list?

And there can be arguments about what is continuity. Ruanda-Urundi is much smaller than Belgian Congo even if once considered a province of that territory. And it would have continuity with Rwanda-Burundi. And the current countries are Rwanda and Burundi, so Belgian Congo should not be the end of continuity as there are still Zaire and Congo (Democratic Republic) in the chain of continuity.
French Oceania + French Polynesia
German East Africa + Tanganyika (but not Tanzania, since formed by union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar)
Portuguese Timor + East Timor
Netherlands East Indies + Indonesia
Palestine + Israel
Italian Somaliland + Somalia
Moldavia and Wallachia + Romania
South Arabia needs to be in the South Yemen chain (I think Kenny means Democratic Yemen + South Yemen) And the current Yemen resulted from a merger of Yemen Arab Republic with South Yemen
Southern Rhodesia + Rhodesia + Zimbabwe

Things are not as simple as Kenny would believe. My preference would be to list actual name changes and territory changes as separate countries. Countries that essentially keep the same name can be listed as one (Philippines). Generally smaller/larger dead territories would also get country status unless can be grouped together for convenience (German states and similar). There will always be disagreement and Numista team/referees would need to have final say.

Will
Papua New Guinea is different is it not? The territories are not the same. German New Guinea and then Territory of New Guinea was only the top half of what is now PNG. Territory of Papua was the bottom half and then the two have been combined into what is now Papua New Guinea.
I never noticed before that Tanganyika is in country list but clicks through to Tanzania. This is a case where we do not need such a reference as Tanganyika never issued coins of its own and Tanzania was formed by union with Zanzibar, so there is no direct continuity. Collectors should not be searching for Tanganyika. I did not realize this when I made my earlier comment about German East Africa being directly succeeded by Tanganyika.

Will
Hello,

First I thought Kenny was talking of Gibraltar ... so many coins for so few inhabitants :D

But then yes, I agree Kenny is oversimplifying the picture. Russia ? Where do you put Ukraine ? Draw me the time-line for Yugoslavia :P, etc.

Indeed in some simple cases we could join. But in many, it is wrong. And people who are reluctant to merging are not only country tickers who wish a long list, that also is a caricature. When those people complain, it is usually because they are not informed of changes.

Maybe we need not be dogmatic and have a single rule, but rather look case by case, possibly with the general idea to simplify the catalogue, that is ok, but also to stick to an historical reality. It reminds me the oppositions to splitting Austria Republic from what we called Austria-Habsbourg, when the territories are sooo different ! The more we move back in time, the less meaningful is our modern concept of nation, and the more flexible we need to be. The Silesia one is a nice example.

At some point, Xavier will organise some additional level to group regionally "countries" and it will be easy to put together smaller entities nicely organized.

PS. Chomp, ... french forum ?? :°
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Quote: "Coinman48"Moldavia and Wallachia + Romania
The borders of old Moldavia are half in actual Romania and half in actual Moldova. In 1859, both Wallachia and Moldavia choose Alexandru Ioan Cuza as ruler and he unified territories under the name of Romania, so it won't be a problem to unify Wallachia & Moldavia with Romania.
I like the idea. Yes it's an oversimplification but I like to have things kept nice and simple. As a general principle it's fine, any kind of structure is welcome. There will be exceptions as already noted but they can be dealt with on a case by case basis and shouldn't be a problem.

Merge away friends.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Quote: "Ecapoe"​PS. Chomp, ... french forum ?? :°

​You can do it yourself too X-D
I think I'll start it tomorrow, as not enough time to translate today.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Very often I see the question "where does _____-country go?" Members think that I mean that the Soviet Union, for example, can only be found under Russia. However, this isn't correct because I haven't explained my idea correctly.

We have one country list that makes up all separate governments, and another that is made up of modern countries. The countries in the latter list each have a drop down list of countries that make up a timeline. Within each country exists yet another timeline. A country that exists in more than one country's history, such as Czechoslovakia, will appear in each respective country. This will account for territorial and governmental changes. For example:

Under Czech Republic:
  • Bohemia - Duchy
  • Bohemia - Kingdom
  • Czechoslovakia - First republic *
  • Czechoslovakia - Second republic *
  • Bohemia & Moravia
  • Czechoslovakia - Third republic *
  • Czechoslovak - Socialist republic *
  • Czech Republic

Under Slovakia:
  • Czechoslovakia - First republic *
  • Czechoslovakia - Second republic *
  • Slovakia - Puppet state
  • Czechoslovakia - Third republic *
  • Czechoslovak - Socialist republic *
  • Slovakia

*may be listed as one country "Czechoslovakia" divided into different eras/governments

This solution to the timeline will not restrict some countries like Czechoslovakia or the Soviet Union to just one country. By having two country lists, members can find their country sorted by the country they are now in currently, or by looking through an index of countries.
Kenny

- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.

Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
(Great ripping sound)

This may seem good at first glance, but let me show how it is not. :|

Complete list under Czech republic would be:

Bohemia - Denar (Duchy and kingdom ovelaping)
Bohemia - Groshen
Bohemia - Thaler
Bohemia - Austro-Hungarian Thaler
(Not even mentioning separate mints)
Moravia - Duchy of Znojmo
Moravia - Duchy of Olomouc
Moravia - Duchy of Brno
Czechoslovakia - First republic
Bohemia & Moravia
Czechoslovakia - Third republic
Czechoslovakia - Peoples republic
Czechoslovak - Socialist republic
Czechoslovakia - Federative republic
Czech Republic

Still looks easy? Lets go to Slovakia.
Almost all Hungarian currencies are missing here - from early medieval to ww2 ones.

Second republic did not issued any new coins, so it should not even be mentioned. Peoples and Federative Czechoslovakia was not mentioned so I added them.

But problems only grow.
Bohemia (will all/some) of its currencies should be mentioned in Austria/Poland/Germany

Czechoslovakia should be too listed in Hungary, USSR and Ukraine thanks to Carpathian Ruthenia!

PS: Roman base was found behind my town south of Brno, should we list Rome under Czech Republic too then?

No, this may work for Timor, or Belize but certainly not in Central Europe.

Splitting up country list somehow is something I support, but creating these drop-down menus would create such mess we cannot even imagine.
Catalogue administrator
Now, when I am completely wake-up. :D It is a good thought, but people would just keep loosing themselves in it...
Catalogue administrator
Oh, I just realized you might meant it in another way. It now prompted some ideas! I will elaborate on that later (afternoon or evening)
Catalogue administrator
Unfortunately the raised matter of classification of countries has no solution. Someone has suggested to realize second level. It won't work too. Because classification of countries in a historical retrospective it's not a linear task. In fact it's some matrix of "movement of countries" in space and time.

My opinion - in this matter need simplicity. What suggested Kenny is a monster (which would be difficult to understand for users and unreally difficult for programmers).
Tomorrow Russia will bite off a piece of Czech Republic. But it will still be Russia and Czech Republic. The day after tomorrow Russia will break down on separate states (this is only end for any empire). And how this movement has to be indicated in your mechanism, Kenny?

Since this matter has no solution, then it's not necessary to pile up a heap here. Leave everything as it is. There is some generally accepted understanding of where this is some new formation, which requires its own category-country (Bohemia), and where it is a direct successor and no need to add a new country to Numista catalog.
Of course idea to find universal scheme it would be great! But if it's impossible, then we just have to accept restrictions and understand that our country list will never have "right" logical structure.
-------
By the way, it's possible on Numista to realize some mechanism of "historical overviews" for each country (for example, WWC has it).
Quote: "Coinman48"​I never noticed before that Tanganyika is in country list but clicks through to Tanzania. This is a case where we do not need such a reference as Tanganyika never issued coins of its own
​Agreed! I check it up right after I read this post, and see, only Tanzanian coins. Remove it immediately! :8D
And why can't Belgium - Feudal be included in Belgium? There's just one coin listed in this catalog anyway. And how come that Nepal (ancient) is separated from modern Nepal?

Also, and an aesthetic detail. If Roman provinces will be changed to Rome (provinces), the two Romes will be next to each other in the listings. I reckong that would look nicer. B)
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Agreed for the Provinces rename. But disagreeing the remnants. Belgium Feudal is already under review and will remain separate as already planned to rename and fill it. Concerning Nepal, I think the Nepal and India ancient referees can explain better why a split was decided.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "chomp-master"​Agreed for the Provinces rename. But disagreeing the remnants. Belgium Feudal is already under review and will remain separate as already planned to rename and fill it. Concerning Nepal, I think the Nepal and India ancient referees can explain better why a split was decided.
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE

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