Moral Dilemma

27 posts

» Quick access to the last post

.
I say keep it, why should they have what you worked for.
Buying gold and electrum coins 700bc-1950ad
Muenzenhamster is a healthy part of our community and should not be censored
I seriously doubt there is any Kingdom of Thrace you could return your coin to.

Law concerning that everything you find is property of the state is so idiotic, that one grandma digged at her own backyard some gold coins (her family owned the house for like 10 generations, so her ancestors buried them there) and because she told everyone, she was forced to give up on them and got 10% of their value as a "reward"...
Catalogue administrator
I would disagree with the guys above in the case when your discovery might improve a local museum or can explain something regarding the history of the region.
Hmmm... This is highly sensitive. Particularly as you used a detector. Fortunately you're not in France as this would be considered as plundering. Unfortunately we would need more the advice of Bulgarian collectors who would be more opened on that subject. So... beware.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
If it was of significant historical interest I would feel very bad about not turning it in. Otherwise I would have no hesitation in keeping it. If the government was less concerned with confiscation and more looking to preserve knowledge they could quite simply allow the finder the option to keep it or surrender it at full market value.

I don't know the exact percentage but the vast majority of ancient coins end up in the museum's basement where the y are forever shut off from the public they ought to serve.

Anyone worried the digging up a couple of coins might destroy a historic site should visit the ruins of Troy where Schliemann obliterated the city of Priam and Hector to get to what he mistakenly identified as Homeric Troy or the trenching carried out by "experts" in many Roman and Greek sites.

These are the same "experts" who plundered Egypt for mummies so they could host an unrolling as an after dinner entertainment for their rich friends.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Quote: "pnightingale"​If it was of significant historical interest I would feel very bad about not turning it in. Otherwise I would have no hesitation in keeping it.


This hits the nail on the head for me.
Personally I don’t collect any ancient coins, as most of them, at least where I live, are plundered from archaeological sites. Archaeologists have to resort to spreading metal decoys across known ancient sites to prevent detectorists from destroying them.

Nevertheless the State’s attitude to detectorists and “treasure finders” in most countries are counter-productive and are probably the reason behind people keeping it secret whenever finding anything valuable. I’ve been told that in the U.K. this matters are solved in a more adequate way and that there are even initiatives were archaeologists and detectorists join forces to better explore their cultural heritage. I have no knowledge of Bulgarian law, you might now be the legal owner of that coin or a “tomb raider”.

Despite disagreeing of pnightingale’s description of archaeological work, accurate for 19th and early 20th century standards, but far removed from the current practice, I agree with his advice: if it’s relevant to that region’s history you should surrender it to the local museum, if they already have piles of them just keep it.
To be helpful on the historical ground, you probably found the coin in its native patry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teres_III
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Moral Dilemma? I do not know the archeological laws in Bulgaria.But i believe it is like other countries of world no big problem.Maybe you will give some money in the authorities and you will take it.In Greece they take you to jail like archeological thief and take it for sure.Also i will like to tell you from friends that have went to Southern Bulgaria there are a lot of fake coins ancient and moderns.
Also i like to mention the insanity of the law in Greece it is out of space......
I am sure that many members world wide that have ancient coins especially from Greece have no special permission as need it in to my country.
So happened this weird thing: a member from (example)Malaysia have ancient coins in his collection very easy and me no.So what i do ?Searching coin from Sarawak:.
The point of view is that collectors from Greece is really-really hard to have ancient coins in their collection.
So the answer to your dilemma is:1)post photo to see if it is first off all fake.
2)it counts in which person you will see it.
Quote: "5element"​Moral Dilemma? I do not know the archeological laws in Bulgaria.But i believe it is like other countries of world no big problem.Maybe you will give some money in the authorities and you will take it.In Greece they take you to jail like archeological thief and take it for sure.Also i will like to tell you from friends that have went to Southern Bulgaria there are a lot of fake coins ancient and moderns.
​Also i like to mention the insanity of the law in Greece it is out of space......
​I am sure that many members world wide that have ancient coins especially from Greece have no special permission as need it in to my country.
​So happened this weird thing: a member from (example)Malaysia have ancient coins in his collection very easy and me no.So what i do ?Searching coin from Sarawak:.
​The point of view is that collectors from Greece is really-really hard to have ancient coins in their collection.
​So the answer to your dilemma is:1)post photo to see if it is first off all fake.
​ 2)it counts in which person you will see it.
​Do you really think people would disseminate voluntarily some fake coins on the ground to trap detector users?
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
.
O.K. Lets dig deeper..This is an article from newspaper which says about the really rare coin from Visaltia Mossis.
They said that find a Bulgarian sheepherder and sell it to his boss for 50euros.The boss sell it to Thessaloniki for 1000euro.And the coin goes from hand to hand nowadays the price approximately reach 120.000euro in an auction.
The Greek authorities be taken to court for return back.Very interesting story .
It is your personally decide what to do.The easy way to keep it silently and the hard way to authorities with probably consequences.
.
Fire Blade5 you really find a fantastic, real,genuine ,solid ,pure ancient coin.You can tell your person a really lucky guy.
My opinion again is to dig the fruit garden inch per inch for more small treasures.
If you go to authorities they will ask you where do you find? and will make the garden archeological courtyard and i do not know what else.If they find many will give to your friend a commission of money from the amount of the treasure after a long time .This happened in my country.
Back to the point .Fabulous find.
Quote: "chomp-master"
Quote: "5element"​Moral Dilemma? I do not know the archeological laws in Bulgaria.But i believe it is like other countries of world no big problem.Maybe you will give some money in the authorities and you will take it.In Greece they take you to jail like archeological thief and take it for sure.Also i will like to tell you from friends that have went to Southern Bulgaria there are a lot of fake coins ancient and moderns.
​​Also i like to mention the insanity of the law in Greece it is out of space......
​​I am sure that many members world wide that have ancient coins especially from Greece have no special permission as need it in to my country.
​​So happened this weird thing: a member from (example)Malaysia have ancient coins in his collection very easy and me no.So what i do ?Searching coin from Sarawak:.
​​The point of view is that collectors from Greece is really-really hard to have ancient coins in their collection.
​​So the answer to your dilemma is:1)post photo to see if it is first off all fake.
​​ 2)it counts in which person you will see it.
​​Do you really think people would disseminate voluntarily some fake coins on the ground to trap detector users?
​Yes .The very high cost living in Balkans made people to act like this.
Collectors will give much money for a coin such as FireBlade5 and not clean and ready to buy from a market (MaShops)for example
They want to feel the highly happiness of find and first touch it.
You can find in markets of Athens really fantastic imitation ancient coins that you cannot imagine even the grams are the same.
I know that Balkans are known for their numerous fakes but they would have no interest in "sewing" fakes on the ground
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "chomp-master"​I know that Balkans are known for their numerous fakes but they would have no interest in "sewing" fakes on the ground
Well, be surprised, they do! X-D

Some well-known South-Eastern Romanian and South-Eastern Bulgarian - actually very skilled/talented - workshops , actually litter the ground with their products at obvious places. (Well, maybe not FireBlade's friend's orchard, but a beach close to sg. even better in area of a new construction or development site, where the contractor has a legal responsibility to report any ancient finds, like jars, coins or whatever)
... then wait for someone to find them. - this gives them the justification and the media that something IS in the area ... then they suddenly find 3000 of those pieces and put it on the market.

It also was bringing scandals on Istanbul metro construction, so yes, Turks are involved as well.

Find out more about the processes here: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic34073.html

Though the coin you have found I trust is original and safe.
If you have already left Bulgaria, then keep it!
If you still thinking about what to do, i'll give you an advice with the mexican way of think:

If you been walking under the sun and getting your hands dirty..keep it, is your effort who got that coin

If its just a coin..¿who cares? Maybe if it was a 50 kilo treasure i would be a good idea to tell someone.

If no one had see you while digging the coin...you have no problem, enjoy your coin and keep the gov aside

Do not envolve the goverment in anything, keep it as far as possible

Emiliano
Quote: "Fire Blade5"​Here is the coin. Sorry for the pictures, but I don't have better camera. It looks better in my hand. On the last photo I just compare it to a penny.


​Your coin was isolated in the ground and isn't scarce. So just keep it, it would bring nothing to the archaeological research.
Do whatever you see fit!
Quote: "Emiliano01"​​
​Do not envolve the goverment in anything, keep it as far as possible

​Emiliano


​Emiliano understands.

Government is NOT your friend. How many more hundreds of millions have to be slaughtered by governments before people see this.

Having been a civil servant for some years I can tell you without hesitation that governments are fundamentally evil. The less they know about you, the safer you will be.

Here's how it works - if our friend turns in the coin, whoever takes it from him will understand that he is a good person doing his civic duty. Face to face it's all good, government officials are still human. However once he goes back to his office, if he doesn't decide to just keep the coin himself, he will fill out several forms and enter our friend's name into a database. Some months later a major act of vandalism occurs at a historic site and the police look in the database for anyone who is known to use a detector to find coins. Our friend is interviewed and if he can't provide a sound alibi his coin collection is taken as "evidence" and maybe he gets charged.

Of course this is a worst case scenario and very unlikely to happen but why take the chance? The motto on the earliest American coins used to be "Mind your business" and that sage advice holds true today. The police even warn you "Anything you say can and will be used against you" and our Founders even had the wisdom to give us constitutional protection via the 5th Amendment against self incrimination yet people just can't keep their mouths shut.

Am I paranoid? Probably, but if I'm wrong I don't lose anything. If I'm right I keep my personal liberty and freedom.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Keep in mind that you do not want to confuse Morals and Ethics. I know this is a "grey" area for most people, but let me try to explain.

Morals are an abstract and subjective philosophy based on "right and wrong", often based on organized groups (religious, government, etc.) Ethics are a practical philosophy which promote a fair and just society.

As an example, stealing. Morally, all religions and governments (Laws) frown on this behaviour. Ethically, you only have to have something stolen from "you" to know how badly it feels. Thus, you don't steal from anyone because you will make someone else feel badly.

Phil and Emiliano have it right. Don't let a group of people tell you what is right or wrong.

Which begs the question. If my Canadian government enacted a "culturally significant" Law regarding Canadian Cents (discontinued in 2012), and Emiliano and Phil found a Cent in their respective countries (USA and Mexico).....?

Keep those Cents guys!!!!!
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.  It's what you know for sure, that just ain't so.  Mark Twain
Excellent thread !
Congrats Fire Blade for wondering and questioning !

Kaiserkillerfr08 has probably the best answer. What an expert would have said.

Other basic anti government comments based on local or personal experiences are fun to read but not more, though often understandable. It is rather fortunate we have some governments :P. Some indeed may be improved but ...

Ethics, dig in, dig in, it is a fascinating field.
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Quote: "Peter M. Graham"​Keep in mind that you do not want to confuse Morals and Ethics. I know this is a "grey" area for most people, but let me try to explain.

Morals are an abstract and subjective philosophy based on "right and wrong", often based on organized groups (religious, government, etc.) Ethics are a practical philosophy which promote a fair and just society.

​As an example, stealing. Morally, all religions and governments (Laws) frown on this behaviour. Ethically, you only have to have something stolen from "you" to know how badly it feels. Thus, you don't steal from anyone because you will make someone else feel badly.

​In fact, it's partially false. The Kantian morals is called a morals but is a philosophical way which permits to the people to know how behave to reach a more positive state.
In greek, Ethics means exactly morals. And as we know, the Greeks made the philosophy. So it's legitimate to consider that Ethics equals Morals, even if Ethics could have a more specific meaning.
.
Oooh, such a tricky situation. If it were me, if a museum could use it I'd happily donate it but if they couldn't I'd treasure it always.

Most museums have endless rooms of things in storage though. They have hundreds if not thousands of relics that will never see the light of day because there's just no room. It's heartbreaking to us historians of the world.

Either way it's an amazing find. Congratulations!

» Forum policy

Used time zone is UTC+1:00.
Current time is 15:40.