LEÓNIDÁS
Joined: 17-Aug-2017
Posts: 501
Posted: 26-Dec-2017, 17:49
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Posted: 26-Dec-2017, 17:49
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Hi guys,
I have bought in auktion this thaler of Ferdinand II - Tirol. But I am not sure if it is fake or not. Because both sides of coin looks "used" but edge look "unused" and sharp, so I am little bit confused. What do you think about that ?
d = 40,3 mm
t = 2,5 mm
m = 28 - 29 g
PetrusAscanus
Joined: 22-Nov-2014
Posts: 6304
Posted: 26-Dec-2017, 20:36
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Posted: 26-Dec-2017, 20:36
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I agree with your worries.
Do a search on Numista and compare the pictures and dimensions
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?mode=simplifie&p=1&l=&r=ferdinand+ii+tyrol
or
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?mode=simplifie&p=1&l=&r=ferdinand+ii+tirol
Did you try some silvertests?
If it is a valuable coin or a scarce one, it is possible it is a replica.
Did you pay much?
Is the seller trustworthy (positive feedback)?
Yours has no dots between comes and tirolis
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11306
Non est totum quod splendet ut aurum
Rijkdom bestaat niet uit het hebben van veel bezittingen, maar in het hebben van weinig behoeften
LEÓNIDÁS
Joined: 17-Aug-2017
Posts: 501
Posted: 26-Dec-2017, 21:03
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Posted: 26-Dec-2017, 21:03
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No, I didnt make silver tests.But I think it silver... Cost was 140e. And it was bought in auction at most "famous" auction house in CZ. I know that there is many many, variants of this coin,... unfortunately.
SpuDy
Joined: 13-May-2017
Posts: 799
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 00:38
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 00:38
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return it
MIMAEL
Joined: 25-Dec-2016
Posts: 1539
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 09:58
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 09:58
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Quote: "SpuDy"return it
Hello colleagues
There are many variations of this coin, I will not give a reason to return - because the coin was from the stone trade auction so I would trust
Are shops in the Czech Republic selling replicas of old coins (not confusing for counterfeits) are mentioned by the seller that it is a replica
The price is the right thaler and is often on offer
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=477&cid=13827&v=1
here is an example of a real coin without translation:
http://www.sberatel.com/diskuse/sberatel/tolar-ferdinand-ii-7071
Here is the number of auction houses and sellers:
https://www.google.cz/search?q=tolar+Ferdinanda+II.+-+Tyrolsko&rlz=1C1NHXL_csCZ684CZ685&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5oYGU5KnYAhUPEVAKHdgGAyQQsAQIQg&biw=1366&bih=637
Ahoj Ivan
Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 13:31
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 13:31
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Hello,
Interesting coin.
I would say it is this one
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces99227.html
However, as you mentioned, there are very many variants. Those thalers were produced by the rotating dies technique in Hall, and there are plenty of combinations of obverse-reverse.
Looking carefully in Moser Tursky, yours would be a combination of obverse of MT#266, legend ending with a rosette, and reverse of MT#272. The latter is the only one depicted with no punctuation at all on the reverse legend.
You coin looks slightly bent, which fits with the technique. But for edges, I lack experience on those. You have to show it to a coin dealer used to handle those. But I would trust the auction house (maybe ask them
There is a die crack on the obverse going from the armour to the letter E of FERD that I have never seen yet.
Good luck in your research. Try a density measure. Quite easy to do. It should be 875 silver.
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
LEÓNIDÁS
Joined: 17-Aug-2017
Posts: 501
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 15:55
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 15:55
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Guys, thank you all for responses. Yes, I will definitelly ask for authenticity in auction house which from I have bought it....,
I have calculated density: ~8937 kg/m^3 .
PetrusAscanus
Joined: 22-Nov-2014
Posts: 6304
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 16:59
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 16:59
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I have seen a lot of pictures of this coin. But yours is the only one with a flower left of the crown.
Non est totum quod splendet ut aurum
Rijkdom bestaat niet uit het hebben van veel bezittingen, maar in het hebben van weinig behoeften
LEÓNIDÁS
Joined: 17-Aug-2017
Posts: 501
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 17:22
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 17:22
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Yes, that is true, also me, lot of types but no one with that flower.
Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 17:38
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 17:38
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Out of 29 types pictured in Moser Tursky, 5 have the rosette. The author considers those as older types (closer to 1577). The other 4 have a smaller bust, the crown does not break the circle on top.
Your density is a bit too low, just that of copper. Did you try this ?
https://fr.numista.com/numisdoc/measure-a-coin-s-density-27.html
With .875 silver, you should get 10.3.
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
LEÓNIDÁS
Joined: 17-Aug-2017
Posts: 501
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 18:02
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 18:02
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Quote: "Ecapoe"Out of 29 types pictured in Moser Tursky, 5 have the rosette. The author considers those as older types (closer to 1577). The other 4 have a smaller bust, the crown does not break the circle on top.
Your density is a bit too low, just that of copper. Did you try this ? https://fr.numista.com/numisdoc/measure-a-coin-s-density-27.html
With .875 silver, you should get 10.3.
I didnt try that method, I am going to try it. But I am not sure how much we can rely on that it will be exactly silver .875. Because I think that sometimes in that times they put there less silver as they officially claim...
LEÓNIDÁS
Joined: 17-Aug-2017
Posts: 501
Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 18:31
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Posted: 27-Dec-2017, 18:31
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Quote: "LEÓNIDÁS"
Quote: "Ecapoe"Out of 29 types pictured in Moser Tursky, 5 have the rosette. The author considers those as older types (closer to 1577). The other 4 have a smaller bust, the crown does not break the circle on top.
Your density is a bit too low, just that of copper. Did you try this ? https://fr.numista.com/numisdoc/measure-a-coin-s-density-27.html
With .875 silver, you should get 10.3.
I didnt try that method, I am going to try it. But I am not sure how much we can rely on that it will be exactly silver .875. Because I think that sometimes in that times they put there less silver as they officially claim...
So I have tried this method and result is ~9.5. But I didnt have so precision scale, my is on 1g. So probably it is not so exact.
jimpop
Joined: 26-Jan-2013
Posts: 1065
Posted: 29-Dec-2017, 02:59
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Posted: 29-Dec-2017, 02:59
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buy some accurate scales if you are spending that much on coins
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