Chopmarked
Joined: 3-Jun-2018
Posts: 4
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 11:26
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 11:26
#
Greetings. I'm a new member. I publish a newsletter on chopmarked coins and I have a photo of a coin I need identified for my newsletter. I can't locate it in the KM guide. Any help would be much appreciated.
CassTaylor
Joined: 30-May-2014
Posts: 8551
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 11:31
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 11:31
#
Welcome to the site!
The chopmark on the left of the obverse looks like a Chinese character, perhaps "永", and given that it's a Dutch East Indies coin type I think it's quite plausible.
Chopmarked
Joined: 3-Jun-2018
Posts: 4
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 11:48
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 11:48
#
Greetings from Taiwan and thanks for the quick reply. I agree the chop is likely 永, but I'd like to know about the host coin. What province is it from, KM#, etc.
Any help would be appreciated.
CassTaylor
Joined: 30-May-2014
Posts: 8551
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 12:03
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 12:03
#
Ah, I misunderstood.
The shield under the rider is from the province of Holland, so there's a start; however the date looks funny, more like "767S" now that I look at it. Also, the seemingly nonsense legend on the reverse: "NICRSIUL . GSNAXAP" is not present on any Dutch issue of the period, so I join your confusion. I wouldn't surprised if it's a
contemporary imitation piece, but that is just a theory
This is the closest coin I can find:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces71043.html
Give us the diameter and weight of your coin as well, and what's on the edge too. It seems to have been plugged at one point, under the raised front hooves.
ALLRED1950
Joined: 2-Jul-2012
Posts: 4670
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 12:07
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 12:07
#
Hi Chopmarked
It is somewhat like the a 1 Ducaton from Netherlands East Indies Km#71 and KM# 110. But not a match by no means. Here it is found under Indonesia. But know a lot of tokens were made there and iam think it is one. Not sure at all. But under the horses front legs , could that round glob be a chopmark filled in? Good luck on you find. yours daryl
It is, what it is, or is it.
Chopmarked
Joined: 3-Jun-2018
Posts: 4
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 12:30
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 12:30
#
Thanks to everyone. I assume it's a contemporary counterfeit made by the Chinese during the Qing dynasty. Plenty of fakes were made by the Chinese of foreign coins in circulation - and were accepted if the silver was of correct weight and fineness.
PetrusAscanus
Joined: 22-Nov-2014
Posts: 6304
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 16:13
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 16:13
#
Welcome to Numista!!!
- seems to have been gold plated
- is it magnetic? It scream out loud that it is a forgery
- the looks says it is late 19th century
Ask Arie if he has seen something like that:
http://www.bonatiele.nl/FILWEL/welcome.html
Non est totum quod splendet ut aurum
Rijkdom bestaat niet uit het hebben van veel bezittingen, maar in het hebben van weinig behoeften
Jadish
Joined: 8-Oct-2011
Posts: 69
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 16:33
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 16:33
#
Its also strange that the faces of the lions on the left pictured side are BOTH gone....probably didnt have a reference to make it?
Long time collector with huge double coin selection. Has huge selection of Japanese historic coins. Trade based on KM catalog values.
apuking
Joined: 31-Oct-2012
Posts: 8689
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 19:25
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 19:25
#
The lion faces looks like natural wear, as does also the old toning which turned teal and a bit golden which is perfectly natural.
if it is a fake it looks to be old and contemporary
the date is indeed interesting but it could mean 1675 or 1678.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
CassTaylor
Joined: 30-May-2014
Posts: 8551
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 20:16
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 20:16
#
It's strange IMO that the forger copied the legend on the obverse perfectly, but not the one on the reverse (on the real Dutch coin it says "CRESCUNT CONCORDIA").... you'd think if it was made with the intent of circulating it would be more well made.
apuking
Joined: 31-Oct-2012
Posts: 8689
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 20:26
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 20:26
#
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
PetrusAscanus
Joined: 22-Nov-2014
Posts: 6304
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 20:40
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 20:40
#
Quote: "CassTaylor"It's strange IMO that the forger copied the legend on the obverse perfectly, but not the one on the reverse (on the real Dutch coin it says "CRESCUNT CONCORDIA").... you'd think if it was made with the intent of circulating it would be more well made.
The obverse is ot correct. It should be:
MO:NO:ARG:CON FOE:BELG:PRO:HOL
MOneta NOva ARGentea CONFOEderatarum BELGicarum PROvinciarum HOLlandiae
The link shows exactly the same coin, same blob, same scratchtes....
Very oubtfull that two exactly the same coins exist....
Or is it the same?
Copyright: Stephen Rare Coins, auction 25, may 19 2016
Non est totum quod splendet ut aurum
Rijkdom bestaat niet uit het hebben van veel bezittingen, maar in het hebben van weinig behoeften
CassTaylor
Joined: 30-May-2014
Posts: 8551
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 21:02
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 21:02
#
Good catch, but obverse is still far more accurate than reverse is....
I wonder when the imitation was made? If it was in the late 19th- early 20th centuries then it was probably made to sell to foreigners as a souvenir.... the link apuking posted mentions it was purchased in China.
PetrusAscanus
Joined: 22-Nov-2014
Posts: 6304
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 21:25
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 21:25
#
As I said before, Arie can propably help
Ask Arie if he has seen something like that:
http://www.bonatiele.nl/FILWEL/welcome.html
Non est totum quod splendet ut aurum
Rijkdom bestaat niet uit het hebben van veel bezittingen, maar in het hebben van weinig behoeften
Cycnos
Joined: 22-Apr-2017
Posts: 3083
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 22:13
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 22:13
#
For me it's the same coin : the exact same defaults are present at the same areas of the coins, same about the chopmarks.
Not sure if he can find more informations than the ones presented on the link posted by Apuking as it tells the background of this coin :
Quote: "acsearch.info"Contemporary imitation with barbarous legends and date written as 767S, but struck in good silver with excellent die work, likely produced in East Asia by Chinese merchants, couple Chinese chopmarks, holed and plugged long ago, VF. Purchased by an American serviceman in Wuchow, Kwangsi, China in August 1945 with the Nationalist Chinese 54th Army en route to Canton (Guangzhou); with his original tag.
PetrusAscanus
Joined: 22-Nov-2014
Posts: 6304
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 23:55
#
Posted: 3-Jun-2018, 23:55
#
Quote: "Cycnos"For me it's the same coin : the exact same defaults are present at the same areas of the coins, same about the chopmarks.
Not sure if he can find more informations than the ones presented on the link posted by Apuking as it tells the background of this coin :
Quote: "acsearch.info"Contemporary imitation with barbarous legends and date written as 767S, but struck in good silver with excellent die work, likely produced in East Asia by Chinese merchants, couple Chinese chopmarks, holed and plugged long ago, VF. Purchased by an American serviceman in Wuchow, Kwangsi, China in August 1945 with the Nationalist Chinese 54th Army en route to Canton (Guangzhou); with his original tag.
I never would pay that much for a forgery like that....
Non est totum quod splendet ut aurum
Rijkdom bestaat niet uit het hebben van veel bezittingen, maar in het hebben van weinig behoeften
Cycnos
Joined: 22-Apr-2017
Posts: 3083
Posted: 4-Jun-2018, 01:43
#
Posted: 4-Jun-2018, 01:43
#
Me neither.
However we should keep in mind that Stephen Album is not cheap too.
This auction house is quite famous and specialised in oriental coinage ; they also published the catalog "A Checklist of Islamic Coins" (a must have for people who collect them).
CassTaylor
Joined: 30-May-2014
Posts: 8551
Posted: 4-Jun-2018, 02:30
#
Posted: 4-Jun-2018, 02:30
#
I might, but only if I collect that area and have the funds...
I can understand not wanting a fake in my collection, but like other people have said before, sometimes contemporary forgeries and the like can be just as interesting/valuable (and sometimes even more than) as the original coin itself.
Essor Prof
Joined: 13-Apr-2015
Posts: 3784
Posted: 5-Jun-2018, 12:35
#
Posted: 5-Jun-2018, 12:35
#
I don't think it's a fake, at least not in the real sense. It's obvious it wasn't the intention to make a copy of a coin as accurate as possible. Hence the nonsense legend on the reverse and the strange "date". That's why I think the "date" 7G7S is not a date but "7 G(ulden) 7 S(tuiver)". Just a thought.
PetrusAscanus
Joined: 22-Nov-2014
Posts: 6304
Posted: 5-Jun-2018, 12:48
#
Posted: 5-Jun-2018, 12:48
#
Quote: "Essor Prof" That's why I think the "date" 7G7S is not a date but "7 G(ulden) 7 S(tuiver)". Just a thought.
Good thinking
Non est totum quod splendet ut aurum
Rijkdom bestaat niet uit het hebben van veel bezittingen, maar in het hebben van weinig behoeften
CassTaylor
Joined: 30-May-2014
Posts: 8551
Posted: 5-Jun-2018, 13:15
#
Posted: 5-Jun-2018, 13:15
#
Quote: "Essor Prof"I don't think it's a fake, at least not in the real sense. It's obvious it wasn't the intention to make a copy of a coin as accurate as possible. Hence the nonsense legend on the reverse and the strange "date". That's why I think the "date" 7G7S is not a date but "7 G(ulden) 7 S(tuiver)". Just a thought.
Perhaps it was a model coin/replica?
Used time zone is UTC+1:00.
Current time is 05:42.