Why do some monarchs who are the first of their name have a regnal number, but others don't?

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Just something I noticed while going through the records of my collection, and seeing how some European monarchs who are the first of their name (e.g. Wilhelmina (Netherlands), George I (Hanover/Britain), Napoleon I (France/Italy), Wilhelm I (Prussia/Germany) etc.) don't have a regnal number on their coinage, whereas others (e.g, Albert I (Belgium), Luis I (Portugal), Franz Joseph I (Austria/Austria-Hungary) etc.) do?

Some countries seem to be rather consistent with regard to this, such as the UK, where Anne, George I, and Victoria, don't have regnal numbering on their coins; but others, like France have had monarchs like Napoleon who didn't, and monarchs like Louis Philippe I who did have regnal numbering on their coins. Others still, like Austria, had regnal numbering on all their first-name monarchs, like Ferdinand I and Franz Joseph I.

Is there any reasoning behind this or is it just relatively random?
Quote: "CassTaylor"​Just something I noticed while going through the records of my collection, and seeing how some European monarchs who are the first of their name (e.g. Wilhelmina (Netherlands), George I (Hanover/Britain), Napoleon I (France/Italy), Wilhelm I (Prussia/Germany) etc.) don't have a regnal number on their coinage, whereas others (e.g, Albert I (Belgium), Luis I (Portugal), Franz Joseph I (Austria/Austria-Hungary) etc.) do?

​Where do you see a regnal number on the coinage of Albert I (Belgium)? There isn't a single coin that bears his name with a regnal number.
@EssorProf
My mistake, I was thinking of Leopold I of Belgium, who has this: LEOPOLD PREMIER ROI DES BELGES on his coins.
Surely they should not have " 1 " because really they don't become the 1st. until there is a second .
Example:- Queen Elizabeth I was not called this until Queen Elizabeth II started her reign.
When we are discussing hubris , no rules apply.
Jamais l'or n'a perdu la plus petite occasion de se montrer stupide. -Balzac
Quote: "Mr. Midnight"​When we are discussing hubris , no rules apply.
:D
And don't forget about monarchs who had different numbers in different countries they ruled. Like this guy:
No number in Austria (he was the first): https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces78566.html
But only No. 2 as a Hungarian king: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces98045.html


There was another interesting case, Charles, who was Charles VI as Holy Roman Emperor, Charles III as Hungarian King and Charles II as Bohemian king. Unfortunately he only used his Holy Roman Emperor regnal numbering on his coins.
@BSmith
Yes, that's very relatable, for example James VI and VII of Scotland were James I and II of England, while one man, Henri IV of France, was also Henri III of Navarre and Henri II of Béarn. There was also Franz II of the Holy Roman Empire until 1806, who was also Franz I of the Austrian Empire from 1804 onwards.

But I was wondering why some first name monarchs don't include the regnal number? I mean it's true that George I was the only ever George of Britain until George II came along, but that doesn't explain why Ferdinand I (of Austria), for example, had them despite being the first of their name
I do not have an indepth answer to the question but it's interesting when i look at the lower values of the coins here (The Netherlands) during the reign of the monarchs Willem I, III and III.
Throughout the reign of these three kings the 1/2 cent and 1 cent depicted only the letter W on the obverse.
Higher values though do have the regnal numbers.
Although Wilhelmina had no regnal number during her reign, the lower values did not have her name.
The 2 1/2 cent of both Willem III and Wilhelmina also do not depict their names.
I'll try and research this to see if there is any logic or if it is just random.
Note the onomastic points in the opening paragraphs about the current pope's name:

« Why the new pope chose Francis as his name »

In the past, there would not have been any numbers even after a second ruler of the same name came about. To know which pennies and groats belong to which of Edward I - II - III of England, who ruled in succession, has been entirely the work of numismatists by reconstructing relative chronologies from die linkage and other methods. And yet some issues remain uncertain.

By the way... Which ruler was the first on coinage to have a number after his/her name?? Well, let's start with this: What's the earliest ruler you know to be numbered on his/her coins?

I'm sure it started earlier, but George II is one that comes to mind, from 1727 on his shillings, for example.

EDIT: I just checked Henry VIII who did use his number by 1526 at the latest. Can we go back earlier?
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@Camerinvs
That's some good insight. I never even considered examples from before the 16th century or thereabouts, but I think the beginning of regnal numbers is somewhere in the early 16th century, possibly the late 15th.

I found this teston of François I from 1515 with the regnal number "I":
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces8651.html
Quote: "CassTaylor"​@Camerinvs
​That's some good insight. I never even considered examples from before the 16th century or thereabouts, but I think the beginning of regnal numbers is somewhere in the early 16th century, possibly the late 15th.

​I found this teston of François I from 1515 with the regnal number "I":
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces8651.html
​Wow! I was just thinking of him because we always say "François premier" in French, even if François II, the only other François, is pretty much irrelevant.
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@MattewNL
Thanks for bringing that up, I think the British are the most consistent with regard to having monarchs' portraits on coins. Think about coins of say, George V; his same portrait appears on every denomination from the 1/3rd farthing to the £5 gold "quintuple sovereign". But on Dutch, Belgian, Italian coins of the same era, their monarchs' busts don't always appear on every denomination, sometimes there are multiple busts on the same series of coins, and sometimes there are just monograms (or sometimes, like the Dutch 1/2, 1 and 2 1/2 cent coins, not even that.)

But back on topic; it would be interesting to see if there are any scenarios where we have a monarch with coinage both with and without regnal numbers.
Quote: "Camerinvs"
Quote: "CassTaylor"​@Camerinvs
​​That's some good insight. I never even considered examples from before the 16th century or thereabouts, but I think the beginning of regnal numbers is somewhere in the early 16th century, possibly the late 15th.
​​
​​I found this teston of François I from 1515 with the regnal number "I":
​​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces8651.html
​​Wow! I was just thinking of him because we always say "François premier" in French, even if François II, the only other François, is pretty much irrelevant.
That's true indeed, and I think we can add him to the list of first-name monarchs that bothered using the regnal number "I" on their coinage. Conversely, Louis-Philippe I, the only monarch by his name, is always referred to (in French) by just his name(s) without a "1er" behind it, and yet his coins had the numeral.

​Speaking of the French distinction, I wonder if we can attribute Napoleon's lack of a regnal number to egotism, like Mr.Midnight suggested? :O It seems to be an established continental thing by the late 18th/19th century to include the number on first name monarchs in Europe, like with "Leopold premier" of Belgium, and yet his niece Queen Victoria didn't bother with it across the Channel.
In the UK, you say "William and Mary", which is enough to identify William III and Mary II.

In Rome, there are very few "repeaters" but Claudius II comes to mind. He would never have been called "II" but rather was known as Claudius Gothicus.

Later, there are the Valentinians I, II, III, but they would never have put a number after their name. Still, they are sometimes said "Junior" as for Constantine II Iunior, son of Constantine I. Again, the Romans would not have used numbers -- not even Roman numerals!

If you look at Vespasian (69-79) and Titus (79-81), they had the same name, Titus Flavius Vespasianus, but the father was (and still is) known by his surname while the son is known by his first name.

And what about the Ptolemies in Egypt? Those unimaginative imbeciles (:D) all ruled with the name Ptolemy, so that historians don't always know which Ptolemy is being mentioned in the documents. And then the queens are all Arsinoes until they're all Cleopatras...

In the US they use letters: "W".
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Not sure, but Leopold premier roi des Belges might just mean Leopold, First king of Belgium. All depends on where the comma is placed...
World coins by date and mint place, 1850-2000
Quote: "tony.c"​Not sure, but Leopold premier roi des Belges might just mean Leopold, First king of Belgium. All depends on where the comma is placed...
​You're quite right, I just assumed that it was "Leopold 1er, Roi des belges" because "Premier" was on the same side of the bust as his name. (8
The fact that it is written in full ("PREMIER"), indeed, probably means "first king", and that's how it has been translated on the English pages in the catalogue.

Here is an early (though not earlier) number: James the VI, surprisingly written with the Arabic numeral "6" at that early date of 1593.

Read here in Wikipedia how Scotland (or at least many people in Scotland) reacted to Elizabeth being styled "II", as in the monogram EIIR. The same article in the section "The first" discusses Francis I and his testoons. It also indicates that in the case of Napoleon I, the number was meant to emphasize the change of regime.

Interestingly, it says nothing of baby "Napoleon II" who kinda was made emperor, in theory at least, so that the Second Empire was ruled by Napoleon III (1852-1870). Likewise, Louis "XVII" never ruled, but after Louis XVI the next Bourbon king was Louis XVIII.

If there was to be a new "Louis" as king of France, his number would be "XX", not "XIX", because Angoulême ruled for about 15 minutes in 1830 just to sign a resignation letter (like his father Charles X a few minutes before him), to transfer the crown to the Comte de Chambord, expected to become Henry V. This didn't happen and Louis-Philippe was crowned as "Roi des français" (a diminished title since he was not "Roi de France").

I remember just now that pope John XXIII took his name and number just in order to fix the problematic numbering of the popes named John.

In Arabic, they write the numerals in full, such as "Farouq the first".
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Quote: "Camerinvs"

​By the way... Which ruler was the first on coinage to have a number after his/her name?? Well, let's start with this: What's the earliest ruler you know to be numbered on his/her coins?

​I'm sure it started earlier, but George II is one that comes to mind, from 1727 on his shillings, for example.

The earliest English monarch to use a regnal date on his coins was Henry III. This is an odd feature of his reign as Henry VII was the next monarch to use it. Quite strange as you'd expect the successions of Edward I to III to be an appropriate time to use the numbers on the coins, especially considering that the usage of regnal numbers came into wider usage at this time.

The earliest regnal number on a Scottish coin is from ​the reign of James III (1460-1488), the Arabic '3' is used. James IV also used the Arabic '4' or 'QRA' (quartus) or 'IIII'. James V used '5' and James VI used '6'. James VI ditched the regnal number after the Union of the Crowns with England to reflect his new title as James the First of Great Britain, which wasn't a political reality at the time.
We don't appear to have any James III coins bearing a regnal number in the catalogue. There are numerous examples of James IV though:

QRA: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces125372.html
IIII: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces90416.html
4: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces90449.html (wee bit difficult to make out)

Interesting to note that all regnal numbers except from the '4' appear at the end of the legend as opposed to after the king's name. The regnal number follows the same pattern on the coins of Henry III: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces52364.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces121424.html
Thanks for reviving the thread @cmaclean!

On another subject, I was going to start a new thread about another similar enquiry but I guess I'll attach it here:
When/Why did (European) monarchs start using titles in their country's language on coins, as opposed to Latin?

We know the UK still uses Latin for QEII's titles, but interestingly British colonial coins rarely had the monarch's Latin titles (Canada, Newfoundland, Australia, are examples I can think of).

Conversely, Prussian/German coins had the king's titles in German since sometime in the early-mid 19th century, but on colonial coins of German East Africa, the title is in Latin (GULIELMUS II IMPERATOR).

The last time a French monarch used Latin on their coins was in 1790, shortly after the first French Revolution; from 1791 onwards it would be "LOUIS XVI ROI DES FRANÇO/AIS", perhaps reflecting anti-clerical aspects of the Revolution; and even after the Bourbon Restoration titles of all monarchs after 1790 (Napoleon, Louis XVIII, Charles X, Louis-Philippe, and Napoleon III) were in French, not Latin.
Quote: "CassTaylor"​Thanks for reviving the thread @cmaclean!

When/Why did (European) monarchs start using titles in their country's language on coins, as opposed to Latin?



That's an interesting question that I've wondered about for a while. I've always just assumed that the French Revolution and the proceeding Napoleonic Wars set the process in motion, particularly in regards to the German states. In all honestly its not a period in history that I know much about so perhaps someone could enlighten us.

On a similar note: do any other countries still ​use Latin as a major feature on their coins (excluding Latin mottos like those that appear on some US coins etc.)?

The retention of Latin is a feature that I've always liked about British coins.
I thought that myself too. Here's a few more sample sizes for consideration:

Looks like most European countries dropped the Latin titles around the time of the Enlightenment (mid/late 18th century); Prussia changed from "FRIDERICUS BORUSSORUM REX" (middle word of which is interestingly, Prussians in Latin), to "FRIEDRICH WILHELM KÖNIG VON PREUSSEN" in 1786, the year Frederick II "the Great" died. Not sure about the other German states.

Austria continued to use Latin titles until the dissolution of it's Empire in 1918; a symptom of being left out of the "German Question" in an era of nationalism and German unification? Hungary began using Hungarian for Franz Joseph I's titles only after the Austro-Hungarian compromise of 1867 it seems; it's pre-1867 coins use Latin too.

Spain seems to have done it around 1821, the date the Real de vellon was introduced; Ferdinand VII's title went from "FERDIN. VII DEI GRATIA HISPANARIUM REX...." to "FERNANDO 7° POR LA GRACIA DE DIOS Y LA CONSTITUCION", which also seems to imply the dropping of the façade of absolutism for constitutional monarchy in the wake of the French Revolution.

Italy is interesting; Sardinia-Piedmont maintained Latin titles until Italian unification in 1861, after which the new Kingdom of Italy began using Italian titles for Victor Emmanuel II of Savoy. Again, nationalism and perhaps an enmity with the Papal States, who held Rome until 1870 are probably responsible.

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