Request to either delete (or move) Turku coins from Sweden to Finland

16 posts

This message aims at: requesting the modification of a coin in the catalogue

Status: Rejected
Upvotes: 2
Downvotes: 0

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I was reading the "latest coins" page when I noticed one thing.

Someone has once again added "Åbo" coins to the Swedish catalogue. The Swedish name of the city if Turku is Åbo.
These coins belong to the Finnish catalogue under City of Turku.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/finlande-1.html


Here are all the coins in the Swedish catalogue. I have listed them in three different "classes",
Move to the "City of Turku",
Page under Turku also exists but has less information than the page under Sweden and
Delete,
And unknown. This one coin is a coin I do not know a lot about.


This list includes all Turku coins under Sweden.



Move to City of Turku:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces113239.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces114329.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces114328.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces113245.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces113246.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces106269.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces106271.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces106282.html



Page under Turku exists, but needs information from page under Sweden:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces110603.html (Picture of coin) and https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces111725.html (Type)
TO https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces144834.html

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces113238.html picture to https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces144839.html

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces152884.html (Picture and more information) to https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces144714.html

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces110863.html (Picture) to https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces144836.html

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces144836.html exists under Turku as 1/2 Mark, picture not included in that page
​​​​​​
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces107807.html Picture



Delete:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces110864.html 3 Crowns type in https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces144836.html picture could be included in comments possibly



Unknown:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces106274.html
My main problem is that, no matter how many sources I read, I have not been able to find anything that states Turku had autonomy from the rest of Sweden. Each source just lists Åbo as a mint (alongside Stockholm and Västerås, since those three seem to be the biggest mints of Sweden within the same time-frame).

If the city had autonomy, then maybe there would be a chance these were local coins, but even so, I would have expected myself to find something talking about that.

So, from how I see it, these coins from Turku were definitely minted in Turku, but they were minted for Sweden. And with a perspective like that, I would prefer to move all the coins currently listed under Turku to Sweden.

But of course, I am not going to do that. While my history on Turku has increased since trying to find a reason to make that city its own issuer, I could still be missing something. And with that being a possibility, I would prefer to hear the opinions of other people before moving any coins (be it from Turku to Sweden or vise versa). :`
From what I have heard, the Turku coins were mostly used on the rural area of Finland. The city of Turku was the largest city in that area. They are listed on many books about the coins of Finland.

Edit: According to a page written by a Finnish numismat, the other coinage minted in Turku were probably minted for the whole area of Finland, but the coins minted 1523-1524 and 1566-1568 were minted for use in the city of Turku.
I do not have that page to reference, but if the coins were "mostly" or "probably" used for Finland, I do not see that as a reason to split the issuer/move the Sweden-listed coins to Turku.

Now, those coins would have more than likely stayed within Finland, but I imagine that just has to do with geography. Åbo, as far as I am aware, was Sweden's only mint in Finland, meaning it would make sense if the majority of the coins that circulated in Finland were from that mint. But that is not necessarily how it was intended. Åbo was a mint of Sweden, so even if the coins were mostly used in Finland, some Åbo mint coins would have circulated in Sweden, and some coins from the Swedish mints would have made their way to Finland. This is not about what was planned to happen, nor is it about random distribution--this is about convenience with location.

As for the coins minted from 1523-1524 and 1566-1568, what you claim seems to be a good reason to separate those coins. I will look more into Turku during those times to see what was happening to possibly cause that. Although, I cannot seem to find any Åbo coins from 1556-1568. Did you happen to mean 1556-1558?
Quote: "Sulfur"​I do not have that page to reference, but if the coins were "mostly" or "probably" used for Finland, I do not see that as a reason to split the issuer/move the Sweden-listed coins to Turku.

​Now, those coins would have more than likely stayed within Finland, but I imagine that just has to do with geography. Åbo, as far as I am aware, was Sweden's only mint in Finland, meaning it would make sense if the majority of the coins that circulated in Finland were from that mint. But that is not necessarily how it was intended. Åbo was a mint of Sweden, so even if the coins were mostly used in Finland, some Åbo mint coins would have circulated in Sweden, and some coins from the Swedish mints would have made their way to Finland. This is not about what was planned to happen, nor is it about random distribution--this is about convenience with location.

​As for the coins minted from 1523-1524 and 1566-1568, what you claim seems to be a good reason to separate those coins. I will look more into Turku during those times to see what was happening to possibly cause that. Although, I cannot seem to find any Åbo coins from 1556-1568. Did you happen to mean 1556-1558?
​i meant 1556-1558. This is the page http://jm78.mbnet.fi/suomikolikot.html
Finland was not a normal part of Sweden (such as Stockholm) it was a rural area with a small population. Turku was considered the "main city" of this area.

And there actual was another mint in the area of Finland used to mint a few plate dalers.
But, since Finland was under Swedish rule this time, how could any coins been struck for, or even in, Finland?

All the coins in the links you want to be moved, bares tve Swedish coat of Arms on one side, and the seal of Gustav Wasa on the other side. That should say it all.
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Quote: "ngdawa"​But, since Finland was under Swedish rule this time, how could any coins been struck for, or even in, Finland?

​All the coins in the links you want to be moved, bares tve Swedish coat of Arms on one side, and the seal of Gustav Wasa on the other side. That should say it all.
​It seems you do not know a lot about these coins. How do you think they were not struck in Finland? Also, foreign money was also used in the area of Finland. The borders of the area existed and it had atleast some autonomy. Turku was only the "capital" of the area known as Finland. Sorry but these coins, especially the coinage stuck during the times of Gustav Wasa, are known as Finnish coinage used in Finland in every source I have read.
I think one of my main problems is that I do not know how to search for Swedish of Finnish cites because, while it is easier to read English cites, searching for results about different countries tend to be more comprehensive if the sources are from the country in question. At least, that has been my experience.

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@Monninen1,

First, here is the translated version of that link (and I hope that version is accurate, because it all I have to go by):
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fi&u=http://jm78.mbnet.fi/suomikolikot.html&prev=search

And here is the paragraph in question:

"The area of ​​Oman consists of Turku's money from the 14th and the 15th centuries. These are, according to their name, just beaten in Turku and some of them can be considered intended to be used in Finland. The current estimate is that they are being manufactured around the year around 1410. With the full assurance of Turku, they are made from Gustav Vasa, from 1523 to 24 and 1556-58. In general, Turku's money is very rare, though a couple of them can be of a kind whose price / availability is within the limits of reasonableness ?!"

There are two sentences that stick out to me:

"These are, according to their name, just beaten in Turku [...]"

By saying just, it makes me think Turku was just the place they were minted at. And as for what follows: some can most definitely be intended to be used in Finland, but some were probably shipped to the rest of Sweden as well. I am sure coins minted in Turku would be used in Turku/Finland, but like I said in a previous post, that just has to do with geography/location.

"With the full assurance of Turku, they are made from Gustav Vasa [...]"

I am not sure how well that sentence translated, but it seems to me like that is a central point here. To me, I interpreted as the king trusting the mint to mint coins--not necessarily to strike local coins, but rather coins in general.

So... I am still not certain on this issue.

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@ngdawa

Regardless of Finland's status, Åbo's coins still could have been local. That argument may be better for the placement of this issuer, if it becomes determined this place should actually become an issuer. ;)

So, rather than being an issuer under Finland, it may be more appropriate to make it an issuer under Sweden (while Turku may currently be part of Finland, it was part of Sweden while these coins were made).

And on a similar note, rather than calling this place "City of Turku", I would prefer to see it listed as "City of Åbo" (kind of like how the "City of Reval" is not called "City of Tallinn").

But of course, all of that is only if this place becomes an issuer...
That translation is really trash. The word "juuri" can be translated into root, exactly, only, precisely or freshly...


Nämä ovat nimensäkin mukaan lyöty juuri Turussa ja osan niistä voidaan katsoa tarkoitetun käytettäväviksi juuri Suomessa.

These are, according to their name, struck (juuri) in Turku and a part of them can be seen as ment to be used (juuri, maybe in) Finland. (i know this is a bad translation but atleast its a bit better)


The Gustav Wasa sentence tells about how exactly the coins made during Gustav Wasa:s times were used in Finland.


About the name: It is bad to compare with Tallinn and Reval as the name "Turku" was used maybe even before Åbo. It was already common so I think the name Turku should also be mentioned in the name if it is changed to Åbo. Turku comes from the ancient (Russian?) word tǔrgǔ and it has been used for a long time
​​​​​​
Hm... let's try to stick to one topic at a time. If Turku becomes an approved issuer, then the name/placement can come into question.

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Thank you for the better translation, but I am still not convinced these were local coins. "Part of them" may have been meant to be used "maybe in Finland", but I do not see part or maybe as being enough. And with the Gustav sentence, I am still not seeing how this supports the possibility of these being local coins.

Also, I messaged a referee for Sweden about this (whitegandalf). They also thinks these coins were meant for all of Sweden, and if the referee thinks that, I am not going to start requesting Åbo mint coins to be moved out of that country. Unless, of course, some definitive proof is given.
Quote: "Sulfur"​Hm... let's try to stick to one topic at a time. If Turku becomes an approved issuer, then the name/placement can come into question.

​-----

​Thank you for the better translation, but I am still not convinced these were local coins. "Part of them" may have been meant to be used "maybe in Finland", but I do not see part or maybe as being enough. And with the Gustav sentence, I am still not seeing how this supports the possibility of these being local coins.

​Also, I messaged a referee for Sweden about this (whitegandalf). They also thinks these coins were meant for all of Sweden, and if the referee thinks that, I am not going to start requesting Åbo mint coins to be moved out of that country. Unless, of course, some definitive proof is given.
​with maybe in, I meant that the word juuri could maybe mean in.
Ehkä means maybe.
Oh, I see. :` That is a little better, but the "part of them" part still makes me unsure.

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whitegandalf sent me a pdf., and it is extremely large (208 pages). If you want to take a look at it, I will link it at the end of this post (keep in mind, it is in Swedish). Page 18 has a section about Turku, and I will post the translation below. Of course, with this being a translation, there are obviously some inaccuracies in the translation, but still, here it is (and with it being so long, I will make another post after this one with my thoughts on this situation):


"For easy-to-understand reasons, the eastern kingdom of Sweden in the former Kingdom of Sweden played a right unscrupulous role in comparison with the West. The center of the kingdom was in Stockholm, and also the material resources were in the west. Today, there are even forces in Finland who want to detract from what they understood for 600 years of association. a. the western affiliation of the country. We two downwriters of these lines [the writers of this section] belong to the group who appreciates the value of Swedish time, and this is not just because of the fact that it is for us a very important center of gravity in our numismatic activities.

"It is not surprising that the mining in Turku in the 1400s and 1500s has become a venue in our respective collections. You can almost say that, perhaps, to someone's annoyance, we had a goal of returning to the country of origin, a part of the Turku coin, which in the days spread over wide areas.

"This target also had the second major commercial bank in Finland, Kansallis-Osake-Pankki (abbreviated KOP, later Merita, now Nordea), who from the 1960s to 1980s through the signed KS, who in his banking service appeared unofficially as a consultant in numismatics, built a significant Åbo collection of 20 pieces, partly top-notch objects. It was sold to the unlucky joy of the collectors at four Holmasto auctions in 2007 and 2008. It was astonished that Nordea Bank did not care about retaining a Finnish cultural heritage that the merged bank had gathered in a quarter of a century.

"The coin began in Turku during the year of Erik of Pomerania in the year 1409 for the Eastern Empire's need to replace the use of Baltic, mostly "revalese" [coins from Reval] subtle coins. First, 6-pencils [penning] were characterized, then firs [fyrkar] and finally furthest [ortug]. The coin continued under Kristoffer of Bavaria and ended under Karl Knutsson Bonde before the year 1470. Even brakes [brakteats] were characterized!

"After a break in half a century, the coin was taken up in the 1520s, first with the full and half herbaceous [ortug], the name of the Finnish patron saint, St. Henrik, and in the years 1523-24 in the form of ear [ore] coins with the name of the new king and picture. These are today really rare.

"The war with Russia caused King Gustav to stay in Turku in 1555 and 1556 for a long time. The coin was opened again with embossments of both coins [rundmynt; round coins] and coins [klippingar]. The coin had the values ​​1, ½ and ¼ mark (2 öre) and both square and romic cutouts of 16, 8, 4 and 2 öre.

"Two other top objects are the square editions 16 öre 1556 (K.S., eg. Brenner, Ekström) at Ahlströms auction 8 and 8 öre 1557 (N.J.L., ex Ekström, 3 famous copies) at Ahlströms auction 30 (at the record price 88,000 kronor).

"It is even mentioned that the veteran 3 Åbomynt is unique: Rombiska 2 örnen 1557, one of Eriks medeltida örugugar and the fountain [fyrkar] 1524. All of these are in the Finnish National Museum's coin cabinet, which, however, lacks 2 or 3 type coins from Turku.

"Perhaps the interest in the Turku coin is an expression of unreasonable nationalism, which in this particular case unites representatives of the two language groups in Finland. One of us represents the Finnish-speaking majority group, the other minority with Swedish as the mother tongue.

"We still want to emphasize that we sincerely and warmly welcome new Turku enthusiasts, preferably from the former western hemisphere."


And the link: http://www.coinauctions.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/misab9.pdf.
With the king of Sweden staying in Turku while the klippingars were struck, it makes me think those coins were meant for all of Sweden. Of course, they probably did not circulate far, but if they were meant for all of Sweden, I would view them as Swedish coins.

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Now, with this thread being under the "requesting the modification of a coin" section, I really want to solve it, but I feel like we may not find a middle-ground here. From what I have read, I would prefer to see all the Turku coins moved under Sweden, but I also do not want to see all the work you have done with these coins lost.

Something I would like to see is a description in the comments section of every Turku coin talking about Turku, with the comment specifically using the words "Turku", "Åbo", and "Abo" (and also "Finland", if you want). That way, if I move these coins under Sweden, those three words become keywords. Otherwise saying, if you go to the search bar and type any of those words, all Turku coins will appear. And knowing that, "Finland" might not really help to find these coins, but still, mentioning that country may still be nice. :)

Oh, and keep in mind that, if you type-in Turku right now, all Turku coins under Finland will appear, but that is only because it is in their currency name. If I move those coins under Sweden, they will not be searchable using Turku unless that word is specified in a field that is not the translation of the legend or a comment of a date-line.

Of course, if I move these coins under Sweden, I can delete and merge all pages you mentioned in this thread, taking care of... well, the point of this thread. And if some definite proof is given of Turku coins being meant to circulate locally, the Turku coins can then be found easily (using the keywords listed above), and all those coins can be relocated yet again.

I would see the moving of these Turku coins to be more of a possible temporary fix to this issue. If definite proof is given, the coins can be moved; if definite proof is not given, the coins can stay under Sweden. :`
At that time, in 1400-1500, it did not matter who or where the coin was minted. All coins were "legal" in Finland, because at that time the value of a coin was measured by the weight of the coin. Most coins were silver coins at that time and to pay you had to have a certain amount (=weight) of silver. Abo is not originally Turku in Swedish. Turku was Turku, Abo is a latin name for Turku. I also know that at that time some coins were mint to use in Turku or Finnish area and they were named using more like Finnish names, but still all coins were acceptable in Sweden also. All that is based on a presentation I saw yesterday, presented by an emerita professor of Turku University.

If we find out later that there were coins used only in Turku or Finnish area, these should be removed under Finland but now I think all Turku coins should be located under Sweden.

I have a friend who have studied more these issues and I will discuss with him later this year.
Yes, I agree with them all moving to Sweden (for now, at least).

I will probably start requesting merges, moves, and the addition of the keywords in the comments section sometime tomorrow. Then I will delete the duplicates.

Well... excluding this coin, because I already sent a request to move it to Sweden: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces144866.html.

That coin is from Sigtuna, who issued a lot of early coins (more than two million, as the link below says).

The first Swedish coin: https://destinationsigtuna.se/en/attraktion/swedens-first-coin/
The coin in question: https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=232454
This thread is over. The purpose of this was not to become your private announcement thread about how much you want to kick those coins, so with all due respect, heck off.
Status changed to Rejected (Sulfur, 15-Nov-2018, 22:27)

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