Bank deutscher Länder [résolu]

Hi,

concerning both coins and banknotes, I am wondering about how issues by the ‘Bank deutscher Länder’ should be treated as they fall a bit between chairs, so to speak.

Already during the war, the allied forces (specifically US and Soviet Union) started printing banknotes and after the war also minting coins that are categorized under ‘Allied Occupation 1945 - 1949’ on Numista: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/ruler.php?id=3582
My first remark would be that this should probably be 1944-1948. The first notes were first issued in 1944 (https://www.moneypedia.de/index.php/Mark_der_Alliierten_Milit%C3%A4rbeh%C3%B6rde) and the last coins issued in 1948. The notes are denominates as ‘Mark’ and the coins still as ‘Reichspfennig’. They then get replaced in 1948 by the new ‘Pfennig’ and ‘Deutsche Mark’.

In May 1949, the Federal Republic is founded and gets the Bundesbank as central bank, which issues banknotes and coins henceforth, all correctly categorized under ‘Federal Republic 1949 - date’: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/ruler.php?id=2860 

But between 1 March 1948 and May 1949, coins and banknotes (‘Pfennig’ and ‘Deutsche Mark’) are issued by the ‘Bank deutscher Länder’, which is founded by the three western allied forces (US, UK, France) without the Soviets and established in Frankfurt am Main. It's effectively the predecessor of the Bundesbank (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_deutscher_L%C3%A4nder) 
Currently the coins are categorized under ‘Federal Republic 1949 - date’, which is wrong as the Federal Republic doesn't exist yet, and the banknotes I could find are either again under ‘Federal Republic 1949 - date’ or ‘unclassified’: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?r=bank+deutscher+l%C3%A4nder&ct=banknote

I would suggest the creation of a new period/issuing authority to give those coins and banknotes a proper home. Alternatively, make sure coins and banknotes are treated the same way and maybe add at least some explanation to whichever period/issuing authority they are subsumed under.

Cheers.

More information here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_deutscher_L%C3%A4nder .

The Deutsche Bundesbank replaced it in 1957.

East Germany also had coins dated 1948 as well.

Aidan.

For Germany Bank Deutscher Länder is definitely not a ruling authority and should be added at least to Banknotes as an issuing entity.

Königlich-Preußische Hauptbank (Berlin:  1 January 1847 - 1 January 1876) from 71-76 Central Bank of the Empire

↓

Reichsbank (Berlin: 1 January 1876 - 1939)

↓

Deutsche Reichsbank (Berlin: 1 January 1939-1945) dissolved on 2 August 1961

↓

Bank Deutscher Länder  (1 March 1948 - 1. August 1957) → Bundesbank (1 August 1957 - to date)

↓

Deutsche Notenbank (20 July 1948 - 1 January 1968)

↓

Staatsbank der DDR (1 January 1968 - 30 June 1990)

paralel to the central Bank:

Reichsschuldenverwaltung (1820 - (1933)1949)

Deutsche Rentenbank (Berlin : 15 October 1923 - 1 November 1925)

↓

Deutsche Rentenbank-Kreditanstalt (RKA) (1 November 1925 - 1945 but still exists)

Idolenz

For Germany Bank Deutscher Länder is definitely not a ruling authority and should be added at least to Banknotes as an issuing entity.

 

As an issuing entity for banknotes it's already there. 

I agree that it'd be weird to have BdL as ruling authority, but it also seems odd to have it under allied occupation. And Federal Republic is just wrong before May 1949.

53th0s

Idolenz

For Germany Bank Deutscher Länder is definitely not a ruling authority and should be added at least to Banknotes as an issuing entity.

 

As an issuing entity for banknotes it's already there. 

 

I agree that it'd be weird to have BdL as ruling authority, but it also seems odd to have it under allied occupation. And Federal Republic is just wrong before May 1949.

BdL was in existence until 1957, therefore, it was a currency issuer for what later became West Germany.

Aidan.

My reco is to use “Allied occupation” as period (and not Federal Republic), then add banks as issuing entities and comments in entries about this 1948-1949 period

The problem is that we need a ruling authority that covers only the western occupation zones for the earliest (western) Deutsche Mark. We also need a “Soviet Occupation” ruling authority for the first issues specifically for the east. We currently have “Republic (1948-1990)” which should be “Democratic Republic (1949-1990)”.

ceh2019

The problem is that we need a ruling authority that covers only the western occupation zones for the earliest (western) Deutsche Mark. We also need a “Soviet Occupation” ruling authority for the first issues specifically for the east. We currently have “Republic (1948-1990)” which should be “Democratic Republic (1949-1990)”.

Absolutely agree with all those points! 

ceh2019

The problem is that we need a ruling authority that covers only the western occupation zones for the earliest (western) Deutsche Mark. We also need a “Soviet Occupation” ruling authority for the first issues specifically for the east. We currently have “Republic (1948-1990)” which should be “Democratic Republic (1949-1990)”.

I added Trizone to the West and Sovietic to the East, thanks

Thanks! At some point we'll need to sort out the exact years across ruling authorities. 

For now, it'd indeed be great if you could still adjust ‘Republic’ under the GDR to ‘Democratic Republic’

And I think there would actually need to also be an additional ‘French occupation zone’ ruling authority to adequately capture these:

N#326302

N#321472

N#209178

N#268323

and a few others I'm in the process of adding.

53th0s

Thanks! At some point we'll need to sort out the exact years across ruling authorities. 

 

For now, it'd indeed be great if you could still adjust ‘Republic’ under the GDR to ‘Democratic Republic’

And I think there would actually need to also be an additional ‘French occupation zone’ ruling authority to adequately capture these:

N#326302

N#321472

N#209178

N#268323

and a few others I'm in the process of adding.

These small change local notes should be under ‘Notgeld’, as that is what they are.

Aidan.

This is really not my area, so happy to defer to your and others' expertise. I just want to point out that, as I understand it, unlike other Notgeld the notes issued by Baden, Rheinland-Pfalz and Württemberg-Hohenzollern were not issued by cities or towns but at the state level and with the authorization of the French military command. The issuance had to be backed through the withdrawal of an equal amount of other means of payment from circulation.

Apparently, some cities and towns did indeed issue their own Notgeld without authorization when their requests to do so were turned down by allied command.

Page 143: https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/blob/607868/195d1b540a2053d42fe9f2b735835115/mL/das-papiergeld-im-deutschen-reich-data.pdf

I added ‘Democratic’ 

Dont you think “Allied occupation” encompasses french zone already?

Compendium

I added ‘Democratic’ 

Dont you think “Allied occupation” encompasses french zone already?

Allied Occupation includes the British, French, & American Zones in western Germany.

Aidan.

It does, plus indeed the Soviet zone. But there are the allied occupation issues that were simultaneously authorised in all four zones such as this N#205023 [these Mark were printed in the US and the Soviet Union]

And then the issues above that were issued only under the military command of the French zone but not the others, such as this N#326302 [these were printed locally, actually still gotta request the printers to be added]

Compendium

I added Trizone to the West and Sovietic to the East, thanks

The correct adjective is Soviet, not “Sovietic”.

For the west, we now have “Trizone occupation”. I like the idea of using the term Trizone but, sadly, I don't think it quite works. First, it wasn't an occupation, rather an economic grouping of occupation zones, so “Trizone” would be better. Unfortunately, however, it didn't come into being until 1/8/48, several weeks after the introduction of the Deutsche Mark on 20/6/48.

Fixed names, sorry for that.

Wiki explains that the monetary reform took place in June in Trizone even if indeed fully official only 30 days later.  I feel calling it  Bizone+french area just due to that would be a bit sophisticated, dont you think?

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9forme_mon%C3%A9taire_de_1948

Compendium

Fixed names, sorry for that.

Wiki explains that the monetary reform took place in June in Trizone even if indeed fully official only 30 days later.  I feel calling it  Bizone+french area just due to that would be a bit sophisticated, dont you think?

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9forme_mon%C3%A9taire_de_1948

I'm tempted to agree since Trizone is a useful term here. However, given the unofficial nature of the term, I can't help feeling we can do better.