Is this also a Prussian KM#A277? [résolu]

Hi there coinlovers, 

I just got this coin on an auction, it is a 6 Groschen from Prussia, poorly struck in the bottemsection but date can still be read as 1752.

Now I think it is A277 N#121699; but both the obverse and reverse are different and is also heavier (3,0 g) and bigger (24+ mm) than  given, so it might be  a different beast after all. So if the collectors with good knowledge of 18ct German can let me know what you make of  this one, I'll be happy.

Is this is also a A277, then  maybe we should add these pics and show  range in weight and diameter for this coin?

PS I have been looking without succes on the internet for an old catalog  off German pre-unitiy coins, as this is quite a difficult and vast area for collecting  which is rather poorly represented in all  digital catalogs and I'm getting in ever deeper (this is nr 160) into this subject. Can anyone know of a good place to get a  specialist book on this?

About the coin:

The reverenced page, N# 121699, does have weight information:

But I'm not happy with the portrait on your coin. There is a huge variation between dies, but that image is quite different from the coin images in Numista and catalogs.

About reference books:

KM has information that isn't in Numista yet (but we are working on that). The source for references is now numismaster.com, but the paper books have more information. Standard Catalog of World Coins for the 17th and 18th century. There's also the Standard Catalog of German Coins (get the 3rd edition) which goes back to 1500 (and sometimes a little further).

I also use various German language books (text below from the Numista references page). I don't read German, but is mostly facts and the camera translate app on my cell phone helps.
 

Schön DM:
Gerhard Schön; 2019. Deutscher Münzkatalog 18. Jahrhundert 1700-1806 (5^th edition). Battenberg Gietl Verlag, Regenstauf, Germany.

Kahnt/Schön:
Helmut Kahnt, Günter Schön; 2016. Weltmünzkatalog / 19. Jahrhundert: 1801-1900 (17. Auflage). Battenberg Gietl Verlag, Regenstauf, Germany.
 

AKS:
Paul Arnold, Harald Küthmann, Dirk Steinhilber; 2022. Großer deutscher Münzkatalog von 1800 bis heute (37^th edition). Battenberg Gietl Verlag, Regenstauf, Germany.

And for older coins here's an older reference:

Saur

Hugo von Saurma-Jeltsch; 1892. Die Saurmasche Münzsammlung deutscher, schweizerischer und polnischer Gepräge von etwa dem Beginn der Groschenzeit bis zur Kipperperiode. Weyl, Berlin, Germany.

Some of the information is incorrect (well, that's true of any book), but it has useful information . The book can be found, but the on-line version has several indices which make it much more useful. There's a page for coins with a kneeling figure, a page for coins with St. Quirinus, and many other pages.

There are also many specialist books for countries or rulers.

Thanks for the info, so you think it should be listed as a new coin? 

I'll wait to see if there are other opinions, of nobody disagrees I'll put it in as a new entry on monday (we seem to have an extra long weekend). 

Found the Schön katalog on the Internet, just ordered it. Must be fairly complete at 1400+ pages!

For krause the only ones with the date 1752 is KM# D278

also the S or SE will be in the shoulder of the bust on the obverse

bjherbison

About the coin:

 

The reverenced page, N# 121699, does have weight information:

But I'm not happy with the portrait on your coin. There is a huge variation between dies, but that image is quite different from the coin images in Numista and catalogs.

 

 

that might be the reason why krause has the 1752's under a 278 not a 277 number.

yeah the portrait looks much more similar. Ofc some small differences which is usual for km numbers of german states to have a few varieties for each type

I also think I found a katz auction from 2021 of your exact coin

Thanks Silvergeek, 

That is very much the same coin, and the same pattern on the lower part of the reverse, so that is probably caused by wear on the same die. And yes, there is a S on the shoulder. 

Now does our catalog also mention KM#D278 on the same page. What is the correct thing to do here, shall we keep it there and add these pics as an exaple of D278 or shall we make a seperate entry?

Codiv

Thanks Silvergeek, 

 

That is very much the same coin, and the same pattern on the lower part of the reverse, so that is probably caused by wear on the same die. And yes, there is a S on the shoulder. 

Now does our catalog also mention KM#D278 on the same page. What is the correct thing to do here, shall we keep it there and add these pics as an exaple of D278 or shall we make a seperate entry?

 

 

 

It is different design all together so yeah I would make a request to separate km# D278 from the others. Also your coin I am talking about is the same one in that Katz listing like that is your exact coin. Krause lists these on the same page of listings but all different numbers are set apart.

And for the Katz auction if you look at the little black toning splotches it is the same your coin is that one on the Katz auction listing

I thought so for a moment too, but this one has a date that is  better. Also: why would somebody sell it after 2 years taking a considerable loss (I only paid €92,-)? 

Codiv

I thought so for a moment too, but this one has a date that is  better. Also: why would somebody sell it after 2 years taking a considerable loss (I only paid €92,-)? 

all the spots line up it is just that they have a good photographer but it is the same coin. Sometimes people buy coins for a bit too much and understand that they need to sell for less.

made a new page for this coin:

N#408243

but will has to be reviewed first ofcourse

Thanks everybody for the input!

1 last observation. Just bought the Schön catalog on 18th century German coins (didn't have this one, I'm sorry to say) and there I did see a 18 groschen coin with the same portrait, also maid in Köningsberg in the same year, so this is apperently the preferred portrait variant of a Köningsberg mintmaster at that time